One-Two-Go Grounded!

[InvestigateUdom]

411A: You said: "Painting the Thai aviation scene with such a broad derogatory brush is uncalled for".
What, specifically, was my "broad derogatory brush" of the Thai aviation scene?

[ChristySweet]

Thailand is NOT SAFE

Thailand, the government and her people have no regard for safety , in any aspect of travel, in any aspect of life.
This is the dirty lie, that's it's a safe destination.

Phuket Air is also dangerous according to pilots on this forum , in this thread .
We know Thai DCA didn't do its job with 1-2 Go and Orient Thai, why would it do its job with any other airline.
Perhaps Thai Air is safe, ( voluntarily ?) but who knows in this country innundated with corruption?

And just WHY hasn't Thai DCA completed one investigation into 3 separate incidents involving deaths on Thai airliners?

[FrequentSLF]

Thailand, the government and her people have no regard for safety , in any aspect of travel, in any aspect of life.
This is the dirty lie, that's it's a safe destination.

Those are very serious accusations and offensive to the Thai people. I do understand why you have been banned from the Thai forums.

I agree with 411A

Do you really believe that Thai International, or indeed any other foreign airlines that operate to Thailand, are in such a poor state as Odom's operation?

I will also add that TG is member of the star alliance, do you think that the other members will let the PAX to fly on an unsafe airline?

You want to go after Udom, do it but in your quest you should not generalize.

[ZFT]

On previous posts, I have urged you (and InvestigateUdom) to stop generalizing. Unfortunately that fell upon deaf ears. Now you are being quite insulting and derogatory against a nation, a nation you appear to be a guest of, if your profile is factual.

You are now probably having a negative impact on your apparent quest due to your general attitude to Thailand and its people.

Again, as stated before, I fully support any actions that dispose of the dross within this industry but I cannot agree with your constant inference that everything here is bad.

I totally agree with both FrequentSLF & 411A posts above.

[Xeque]

Yes IU. I have to agree with the previous posts. By all means go after Udom - he's a gangster and he needs to be taken down. But to generally paint Thailand with the same, negative brush is neither fair nor accurate.
There is a lot here that's very good, just as there is a lot that is very bad, But then, you can say that about most countries in the world.

[InvestigateUdom]

Is it Udom or the DCA

411A, ZFT, FrequentSLF, ChristySweet and everyone else following this thread:

We are all following this thread because we have concerns or interests related to Thai-based aviation. I suggest we stop the factually non-specific and ad hominem language of these past few posts, as they make the thread not worth reading and this is too important a subject to tolerate such degradation.

I will take some blame here for misunderstanding 411A's initial post about people coming to Thailand "for obvious reasons". (In my part of the world, I actually do occasionally have to tell people that not everyone going to Thailand is looking for sleazy sex.) In my response I was careful to ask if he meant the sex stuff. Apparently he did not. ("obvious" to 411A was not obvious to everyone.)

Regarding the important issues being covered in this thread. Is the trouble with Udom and Orient Thai/One-Two-Go? Is the problem with the DCA? Could it possibly be with the Thai people in general?

Here is what is publicly known:

• There are very significant issues with Udom and any airline he might run. IMO, he should be banned from aviation worldwide. Most people reading this thread have seen the proof. Many of the people following this thread in Thailand deal with or have dealt with Udom on a regular basis. They have lived this reality.
• There are very significant issues with the DCA and their failure to provide oversight of Thai-based aviation. At a minimum, cronyism prevents them from doing their jobs. Much more likely - and I have very credible allegations to the point - the DCA (particularly but not limited to Witichai) is corrupt.

Since the DCA is unable or unwilling to do their jobs in overseeing Thai-based aviation, this causes Thai-based airlines to be only as safe as their management prefers them to be. I have proof (and am in the process of taking it public) of serious deficiencies at Phuket Air and Skystar. The issues are similar and, at Phuket Air, even worse than at Orient Thai. Because the DCA doesn't do it's job, travelers all over the world are unknowingly endangered.

[rolibkk]

Bangkok Airways

Cambodia's Siem Reap Airways International and all carriers from Angola have been added to the European Commission's 'blacklist' of banned airlines.

Siem Reap Airways is owned by Bangkok Airways and operate A320.

So either the guys in Brussels are blind or something is definitely suspicious here ....

[Earl]

Thailand is a great place, people are friendly, you can walk the streets and feel safe , food is excellent etc.
Just a couple of these ACMI airlines leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to operations.
I did hear that the C/P resigned recently from the airline I was referring to and things should improve dramatically, unless they appoint another one like this.
Quite a few left because of this C/P due to his threats and intimidation forcing crews to fly like this or go home.
I really don't think the head managers at the time cared that they were losing all there crew, but think they know why now!
Maybe they can turn it around and be a good company.
Go to Thailand and enjoy.
But I will say if the Thai DCA was doing its job correctly this thread would not exist, lots of things they have let slip past them.
Serious issues!!

[InvestigateUdom]

One-Two-Go Continues Illegal Flight

One-Two-Go continues to fly regular Orient Thai routes Hong Kong to Bangkok. They've been flying this route since approximately Oct 11th. Too bad One-Two-Go has a suspended AOC.

See Witichai say they are still suspended. Or maybe he hasn't noticed OTG flying out of Bangkok?

[ZFT]

411A, ZFT, FrequentSLF, ChristySweet and everyone else following this thread:

We are all following this thread because we have concerns or interests related to Thai-based aviation. I suggest we stop the factually non-specific and ad hominem language of these past few posts, as they make the thread not worth reading and this is too important a subject to tolerate such degradation.

I would suggest that both you and ChristySweet review your own posts before suggesting what I and others should post.

Stick to Udom and the like and I will have no need to respond. Carrying on trying to drag this country and/or the good operators down with wild, false or inaccurate statements will only illicit further responses from me which you will have to tolerate.

[InvestigateUdom]

I proudly stand behind everything I've written.
Have a good day.

[ZFT]

Confused - certainly not. I admire IU for what she is trying to achieve. Where Udom and his ilk are concerned, I fully support the objective.

My issue is and always has been the occasional drift against everything within Thailand. There are many good things here, many good aviation people.

Unfortunately, there is also the rubbish whom hopefully will get their just deserves.

[ZFT]

ZFT, are you sure.

Yes, positive. Her quest against Udom is without doubt justified.

[PanzerJohn]

As someone who spends a lot a time in Thailand and in the air there I fully support this thread and its aims. The thais attitudes to safety are not as ours. Spend time there and see the states of the buses with worn out tires and brakes, drivers falling asleep at the wheel due to lack of sleep or alcohol are common. Taxis can be downright dangerous. Part of this is , I think due to the fatalistic mai pen rai attitude of the thais, broadly speaking, **** happens. Health and safety just doesn't exist there, if you ever see a Thai constuction site you will weep.
The inate corruption present in state institutions from the Prime ministers office right down to the street cop after some tea money poisons most things and allows crooks like Udom to flourish. Thats the way things are and always have been, its going to take a long time for things to change, if they ever will. Still a great place though.

[ChristySweet]

But Thai DCA IS inept, corrupt and criminal

Is Thai Air safe? Who knows?

I apologize if I set off a debate on Thai fatalistic culture that is totally inappropriate for this forum- but I'm adamant that Thailand is not a safe destination for air travelers.

It's not just 1-2 Go, it's also Phuket Air and SkyStar That we KNOW about. And these airlines are not safe because of Thai DCA ineptness, corruption and possible criminalty .
So ....Again,

Why hasn't Thai DCA completed one crash investigation in 3 separate incidents involving deaths?

Let me add...
If it weren't for InvestigateUdom, 1-2 Go would still be flying with all the unsafe practices still in place .
Already Thai aviation is somewhat safer because of her incredible efforts , BUT NOT YET SAFE ENOUGH.
So please, get on your knees and thank her.

[ChristySweet]

From a surviving passenger on flight OG 269

Brent Boerkamp, Netherlands
"My girlfriend and I didn't knew that flying in Thailand was so dangerous since we have horrible experienced it last year. So many people have lost their precious lives, and so many families have lost their loved ones. Can you sleep at night 'mister' Tantiprasongchai? I can't...
I thought that the FAA would be our safety guards and protecting us against mala fide airlines and aviation authorities but now I know they don't, they will only reward them. Is this the new standard?! Do you like to gamble and let your family fly in Thailand?! FAA, you have the power to stop this kind of criminal activities, why do you look the other way?!"

[tbavprof]

My, How This Has Degenerated

First off, let me say that Christy's original comment that sparked this debate was over the top. And I agree that, should she wish to start a consumer boycott of Thailand, she's certainly within her rights, and totally inappropriate for this forum.

As someone who rides a scooter in LoS everyday, anyone would have a hard time convincing me that transportation safety is Priority #1 around here. But again, this isn't the appropriate forum for these types of discussions.

What is legitimate IMO, is a discussion of endemic corruption, the structural components of the Thai aviation industry and regulating authorities, and their effects on the safety of air transportation here.

If you start at the lowest levels, there ARE plenty of people here in the industry and government who DO care about safety. IU wouldn't have been able to gather the documentation she has on out and out criminal behavior at 1-2-Go, and a preponderance of evidence suggesting complicity by DCAT, unless that was true... even at 1-2-Go.

Going up to the carrier level, I would agree that PG, TG, and SGA/Nok operate at a much higher standard of safety than others overseen by DCAT. However, I wouldn't overgeneralize that there aren't individuals in those organizations who place safety further down their priority list. And I especially wouldn't aver that DCAT or any of the aviation-related state enterprises are immune to pressure and influence from TG. The structure of the state enterprise system, the interrelations and transfers of personnel between industry and government regulators, and even practices such as DCAT Safety Inspection Officers being carried on the payrolls of industry participants invites questioning of the appearance of conflict of interest, at the very least.

At the CAA level, the whole country must be painted with a broad brush, no matter how unfair to individuals or individual operators.

Dear Garuda,

While it's true you've passed your IATA audit, we have concluded that the Indonesian CAA is still FUBAR. We regret to inform you that the ban on your airline operating in European airspace will continue indefinitely.

Should your local CAA ever meet our standards, we invite you to reapply for traffic rights.

Best Wishes,
EASA
*Fake letter to illustrate a point of discussion.

And, based on what's been posted even in this thread, it's clear that the FAA (through its IASA program or interminable delays implementing NTSB recommendations) and EASA (as noted with the Siem Reap ban) are either totally incompetent, or themselves subject to influences that keep them from making Safety-First decisions. So it's not exclusive to Thailand. As actions by these two bodies are widely viewed by the traveling public as the sole indicators of air transportation safety reliability, especially when planning trips abroad, to question the information contained in their pronouncements seems legitimate.

Blue skies.

[FrequentSLF]

One-Two-Go continues to fly regular Orient Thai routes Hong Kong to Bangkok. They've been flying this route since approximately Oct 11th. Too bad One-Two-Go has a suspended AOC.

What about Hong Kong Authorities? Why are they allowing such flights?
Maybe an official letter of clarification to Hong Kong CAA (if that is the name).
I hardly believe that Hong Kong will let an airline without AOC on their airspace.

[tbavprof]

Maybe...

What about Hong Kong Authorities? Why are they allowing such flights?

Possibly because the flights are operating as OX, and they have a certified copy of the OX AOC (no details required) on board?

[FrequentSLF]

Possibly because the flights are operating as OX, and they have a certified copy of the OX AOC (no details required) on board?

I apologize for my ignorance, however I have to ask how is possible that an AOC is valid in one country and not in another one? Is clear that the EU is not recognizing the AOC issued by the Indonesian CAA, however here we are talking about OX using OG planes and crew. OG has not a valid AOC, therefore HKG should be aware of it.