XL Airways new 737 diverts to LCA
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For ****'s sake - the Captain is going to have to answer to greater minds than ours on this 'knitting circle'. Let's leave " 'e did right/'e did wrong" to them, eh? WE have literally NO IDEA!
Otherwise I'm sure a useful thread to get people thinking.
Otherwise I'm sure a useful thread to get people thinking.
FX Guru
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Greenwich
Age: 67
Posts: 900
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another humble SLF here.
Firstly, I'm interested in the fact that what appears to be a brand new engine goes TU. I'd certainly want my money back, or a new engine gratis, and am interested in the question about who coughs for the replacement and if there is are x amount of hours whereby an engine is considered to have endured the aeronautical equivalent of 'fair wear and tear.'
Also, this is just a personal view, but when I board a plane my life is in the hands of the Captain. I assume my Captain also values his life and wants to get back in one piece to his wife and kids and Rolex collection as much as I do (although I lack the Rolex collection).
Therefore, rightly or wrongly, I trust the captain to make the right decision and it seems to me he made the right decision.
Firstly, I'm interested in the fact that what appears to be a brand new engine goes TU. I'd certainly want my money back, or a new engine gratis, and am interested in the question about who coughs for the replacement and if there is are x amount of hours whereby an engine is considered to have endured the aeronautical equivalent of 'fair wear and tear.'
Also, this is just a personal view, but when I board a plane my life is in the hands of the Captain. I assume my Captain also values his life and wants to get back in one piece to his wife and kids and Rolex collection as much as I do (although I lack the Rolex collection).
Therefore, rightly or wrongly, I trust the captain to make the right decision and it seems to me he made the right decision.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Heathrow
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was a passenger on an aircraft that attempted to fly from Crete to Germany with the gear down. It ran out of fuel and had to make an emergency landing.
Although I respect your "band of brother's" attitude, I do not appreciate "Professional pilots" playing god with my life.
If it happened,15 mins or 70 mins in a 737 on one engine is a big difference. The over riding priority however should be my life. The aircraft may well have remained safe the whole time but most certainly the risk factor had increased considerably. An avoidable increase in risk that as a passenger I am not consulted upon. I cannot ring the bell and just jump off so it is left up to you professionals to be professional.
Get down in 15 is the only response if you have any respect for the lives and safety of others.
And yes the financial/maintenance aspect was a major factor in the gear incident. I am not yet convinced that this isn't the case here as well.
@Angels
never assume, check
Although I respect your "band of brother's" attitude, I do not appreciate "Professional pilots" playing god with my life.
If it happened,15 mins or 70 mins in a 737 on one engine is a big difference. The over riding priority however should be my life. The aircraft may well have remained safe the whole time but most certainly the risk factor had increased considerably. An avoidable increase in risk that as a passenger I am not consulted upon. I cannot ring the bell and just jump off so it is left up to you professionals to be professional.
Get down in 15 is the only response if you have any respect for the lives and safety of others.
And yes the financial/maintenance aspect was a major factor in the gear incident. I am not yet convinced that this isn't the case here as well.
@Angels
never assume, check
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yamaha
Post #24 states that the failure happend near the FIR boundary, at that position the options for a diversion are Iraklion or Larnica. As Iraklion is a shorter runway with loss of high ground to get in the way of the go around from a VOR approach. Larnica on the other hand has a long runway with none of the go around issues from an ILS approach. Larnica is the best airfield in this situation based on airfield factors alone, the maintenance backup is just a bonus.
Your assumption that TOC would be at Cairo is flawed, out of SSH the max FL that you are likely to reach would be FL340 and the position of the aircraft near the FIR bondary is likely to be the point at a climb to the FL360 cruise would take place.
Even if the engine failed overhead Cairo by the time the QRH items are actioned the aircraft is going to be equaly placed for Cairo or Larnica and for reasons outlined by others Larnica is the best option.
The comments about the company's financal state shows how little you know about the way decisions are make on the flight deck when a problem such as his happens, I hope this dispells your "red top" attitude and flawed thinking.
So to finish this post on a high note I would like to say to the crew "a professional job well done!!"
Your assumption that TOC would be at Cairo is flawed, out of SSH the max FL that you are likely to reach would be FL340 and the position of the aircraft near the FIR bondary is likely to be the point at a climb to the FL360 cruise would take place.
Even if the engine failed overhead Cairo by the time the QRH items are actioned the aircraft is going to be equaly placed for Cairo or Larnica and for reasons outlined by others Larnica is the best option.
The comments about the company's financal state shows how little you know about the way decisions are make on the flight deck when a problem such as his happens, I hope this dispells your "red top" attitude and flawed thinking.
So to finish this post on a high note I would like to say to the crew "a professional job well done!!"
Join Date: May 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yamaha you are a Knob.
What is it with this place. Time to shut it down.
Full of Brit knowall blue jumper wearing enthusiasts with a subscription to transair pilot shop and an airband reciever
They did their job as it says on the tin so bugger of you plonker.
What is it with this place. Time to shut it down.
Full of Brit knowall blue jumper wearing enthusiasts with a subscription to transair pilot shop and an airband reciever
They did their job as it says on the tin so bugger of you plonker.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: halifax
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
totally agree with all those who think that Yamaha is a total K
B. as said, the flight crew did the job they are there to do and made the most essential part of the flight - to get the aircraft safely on the ground! giving Yamaha's view on the aspect of safe air travel, it would seem to me that he would take an aircraft out of service even if 1 of the many toilets on board was unservicable.
Lou Stulewater, can i please advise you that not all us Brits are as arrogant & pig headed as Yamaha is - thankfully. unfortunately, it is just the few that paint a very disappointing picture for the rest.
B. as said, the flight crew did the job they are there to do and made the most essential part of the flight - to get the aircraft safely on the ground! giving Yamaha's view on the aspect of safe air travel, it would seem to me that he would take an aircraft out of service even if 1 of the many toilets on board was unservicable.Lou Stulewater, can i please advise you that not all us Brits are as arrogant & pig headed as Yamaha is - thankfully. unfortunately, it is just the few that paint a very disappointing picture for the rest.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 40
Posts: 261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yamaha
Have you also considered that the additional time to divert to LCA would give the cabin crew more time to ensure that all passenger preparation is completed for an emergency landing?
Having done 2 SSH`s this week, the TOC is indeed close to the FIR boundary and the decision to go to LCA and not CAI I believe was the right one.
Have you also considered that the additional time to divert to LCA would give the cabin crew more time to ensure that all passenger preparation is completed for an emergency landing?
Having done 2 SSH`s this week, the TOC is indeed close to the FIR boundary and the decision to go to LCA and not CAI I believe was the right one.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Where would you like me to live??
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From Boeing Flight Crew Training Manual.
Section 8.34
ie Non-Normal Operations
Landing Airport
The following items should be considered when selecting an airport for landing:
Section 8.34
ie Non-Normal Operations
Landing Airport
The following items should be considered when selecting an airport for landing:
- Weather Considerations (VMC preferred).
- Enroute time.
- Length of Runway available.
- Emergency services available.
- FLIGHT CREW FAMILIARITY.
- Other fators dictated by the specific situation.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Far away from home
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is some absolute crap being posted here.
Until we know the facts then quite frankly, there is nothing to discuss.
The only facts we know for certain and not " a friend of a friend of a mate down the pub told me" are,
1. A/C suffered an engine problem/failure
2. Crew made a decision to land at LCA
3. Crew landed the aircraft safely and no one was hurt.
Anything else is just second guessing. And yes, it may be a "rumour website" but please have some consideration for the crew involved who will now surely be going over every minute detail of every action they carried out to prepare themselves for the forthcoming enquiry.
If I were i their position I would hate to reading some of the absolute crap (Yamaha in particular) posted on here.
Lets wait for the FACTS.
Until we know the facts then quite frankly, there is nothing to discuss.
The only facts we know for certain and not " a friend of a friend of a mate down the pub told me" are,
1. A/C suffered an engine problem/failure
2. Crew made a decision to land at LCA
3. Crew landed the aircraft safely and no one was hurt.
Anything else is just second guessing. And yes, it may be a "rumour website" but please have some consideration for the crew involved who will now surely be going over every minute detail of every action they carried out to prepare themselves for the forthcoming enquiry.
If I were i their position I would hate to reading some of the absolute crap (Yamaha in particular) posted on here.
Lets wait for the FACTS.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here are the facts to put and end to the unknown information.
Incident occured on awy UL617 between IMRUT and ASNIR.
From Google Earth:-
Cairo Approx 200nm
Larnaca Approx 300nm
Heraklion Approx 325nm
Sharm Approx 425nm.
Reason for choosing Larnaca over Cairo:- 1 Egypt!!!!!!!
2 Cairo ATC!!!!!
3 Cairo ATC!!!!!
4 Familiarty with Larnaca!!!!!
5 Engineering Cover!!!!!
Hope this clarifies the situation.
Incident occured on awy UL617 between IMRUT and ASNIR.
From Google Earth:-
Cairo Approx 200nm
Larnaca Approx 300nm
Heraklion Approx 325nm
Sharm Approx 425nm.
Reason for choosing Larnaca over Cairo:- 1 Egypt!!!!!!!
2 Cairo ATC!!!!!
3 Cairo ATC!!!!!
4 Familiarty with Larnaca!!!!!
5 Engineering Cover!!!!!
Hope this clarifies the situation.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: oop north
Age: 54
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Best policy with yamaha is dont feed him ,he used to lurk on the engineers forum winding people up until they wised up to him, turned out he wasnt a pilot after all (surprise surprise) and actually worked in a shop at either LGW or LHR
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Worldwide
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well Done!
25Hundred.
Thank you for that info. It will put paid to all the nonsense and Yamaha's attempts at stirring it.
LCA was well within the 400 nm single engine range, (which surely is for planning purposes only) so a very good descision made by the crew. I think most of us in the IT world would rather go to Cyprus (which we know and love) than CAI or ALY....!
Well done to all involved.
Thank you for that info. It will put paid to all the nonsense and Yamaha's attempts at stirring it.
LCA was well within the 400 nm single engine range, (which surely is for planning purposes only) so a very good descision made by the crew. I think most of us in the IT world would rather go to Cyprus (which we know and love) than CAI or ALY....!
Well done to all involved.
Guest
Posts: n/a
A most interesting thread very much diverted into a personal yamaha issue; I also smell more the journo than a a pro of our profession with a complete lack of understanding.
Of course is any 737 capable to take the stress of an overweight landing.
My Ops Man recommends even this procedure in the given case.
At night, with obviously not too many minutes of difference to a known environment, much easier terrain, well known ATC procedures, all ground-support available as one may want in these circumstances, I cannot see anything bad in the crew's decision.
I do not know the XL aircraft, there may have been even company support for the decision via Acars or HF.
Hope the DFO invites all crew on company expense for a nice dinner as it appears for 'real' professionals that the job was done as the books teach us.
yamaha, please back off until you and we others know more as the facts revealed here are not even enough to start guessing if there would have been a better solution.
Of course is any 737 capable to take the stress of an overweight landing.
My Ops Man recommends even this procedure in the given case.
At night, with obviously not too many minutes of difference to a known environment, much easier terrain, well known ATC procedures, all ground-support available as one may want in these circumstances, I cannot see anything bad in the crew's decision.
I do not know the XL aircraft, there may have been even company support for the decision via Acars or HF.
Hope the DFO invites all crew on company expense for a nice dinner as it appears for 'real' professionals that the job was done as the books teach us.
yamaha, please back off until you and we others know more as the facts revealed here are not even enough to start guessing if there would have been a better solution.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: London, Berlin, Bucharest
Posts: 284
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
about the point of pilots playing with their pax life:
yes pilots have a duty of care to take into consideration the pax life, but surely they will not put them into a "dangerous situation" as one obvoius non pilot has put it, when the pilots own life is at risk??
why would a pilot take a more risky decission as whatever outcome that happens to the passengers, will be the same outcome for him. he is in the same tube as them at the end of the day...
i suggest you stop saying what you think of the situation when you have proved that the only knowledge of the airline industry you have, is that you sit down and wait for cabin crew to ask if you want chicken or beef.
yes pilots have a duty of care to take into consideration the pax life, but surely they will not put them into a "dangerous situation" as one obvoius non pilot has put it, when the pilots own life is at risk??
why would a pilot take a more risky decission as whatever outcome that happens to the passengers, will be the same outcome for him. he is in the same tube as them at the end of the day...
i suggest you stop saying what you think of the situation when you have proved that the only knowledge of the airline industry you have, is that you sit down and wait for cabin crew to ask if you want chicken or beef.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Heathrow
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
who's guessing?
no problem I can wait. Will be interesting debating the results of this report.
In the meantime what would be more worthy of being fired, inviting a professional footballer to the cockpit on a perfectly serviceable aircraft or flying for an additional unnecessary 60 minutes on one engine to get to a maintenance base?
no problem I can wait. Will be interesting debating the results of this report.
In the meantime what would be more worthy of being fired, inviting a professional footballer to the cockpit on a perfectly serviceable aircraft or flying for an additional unnecessary 60 minutes on one engine to get to a maintenance base?