Air India - pilots fall asleep
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: uk
Age: 58
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fatigue
@bobbsy
I also agree that many worker's work to long a shift and pilots in line with any driver's of trains, buses ect have to be 100% focused on the job,
is it a common occurance for pilots to sleep on the job?
I dont think train/bus driver's do whatever the hours worked and onset of shift?
If they were asleep naturally they are out of order, if they were put to sleep by contaminent then that's a different matter altogether,
best wait and find out what really happened hey?
I also agree that many worker's work to long a shift and pilots in line with any driver's of trains, buses ect have to be 100% focused on the job,
is it a common occurance for pilots to sleep on the job?
I dont think train/bus driver's do whatever the hours worked and onset of shift?
If they were asleep naturally they are out of order, if they were put to sleep by contaminent then that's a different matter altogether,
best wait and find out what really happened hey?
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Salzburg
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As I said, a gross misinterpretation of events.
Servus, Simon
Last edited by Austrian Simon; 27th Jun 2008 at 06:53.
PPRuNe supporter
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 1,677
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The airline also said that the pilots were not woken up by the SELCAL buzzer. However, a top official of Mumbai Air Traffic Control confirmed that SELCAL was indeed used to establish contact with the pilots. SELCAL, or selective calling, sounds like a buzzer in an aircraft's cockpit when the ATC dials the exclusive four-alphabet combo assigned to an aircraft.
gross misinterpretation of events
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SWE
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
777300ER
A bus driver can stop the bus to rest anytime.
The problem for us pilots is that it´s impossible to know that ex. "I´m about to start a 4 hour flight but 3 hours from now I will not be able to stay awake, so I have to report unfit for flight." Sometimes I have expected to be very tired during a flight but it turned out to be no problem at all to stay awake. Other times I have been surprised that I have had such a problem staying awake. It´s often impossible to know.
Carbis22
Both pilots will probably have had the exakt same working hours the last days as pilots normally are paired together for up to 5 days. With that in mind I find it very likely that they both will be tired at about the same time.
When you yourself have great problems staying awake it´s not likely that you will notice that the other guy also is dog tired.
I once had a captain fall asleep during approach. That was after he armed the autopilot for an ILS approach at 5000 ft. The autopilot captured the ILS and I noticed the captain nodding off but since I myself was not tired at all, I let him sleep. The captain woke up at 2500 ft and executed a nice landing.
Later on I expected the captain to take himself off the schedule but he didn´t. We both finished the day without having any problem staying awake.
(If I had also been tired I would have protested. We hadn´t had a very pressing schedule and the only reason for the captain falling asleep must have been the very early morning flight.)
A bus driver can stop the bus to rest anytime.
The problem for us pilots is that it´s impossible to know that ex. "I´m about to start a 4 hour flight but 3 hours from now I will not be able to stay awake, so I have to report unfit for flight." Sometimes I have expected to be very tired during a flight but it turned out to be no problem at all to stay awake. Other times I have been surprised that I have had such a problem staying awake. It´s often impossible to know.
Carbis22
Both pilots will probably have had the exakt same working hours the last days as pilots normally are paired together for up to 5 days. With that in mind I find it very likely that they both will be tired at about the same time.
When you yourself have great problems staying awake it´s not likely that you will notice that the other guy also is dog tired.
I once had a captain fall asleep during approach. That was after he armed the autopilot for an ILS approach at 5000 ft. The autopilot captured the ILS and I noticed the captain nodding off but since I myself was not tired at all, I let him sleep. The captain woke up at 2500 ft and executed a nice landing.
Later on I expected the captain to take himself off the schedule but he didn´t. We both finished the day without having any problem staying awake.
(If I had also been tired I would have protested. We hadn´t had a very pressing schedule and the only reason for the captain falling asleep must have been the very early morning flight.)
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There was a lapse of radio frequency, reason unknown. The crew noticed this after a couple of minutes, changed to the correct frequency and re-established communication by themselves. No SELCAL, alerts or ATC waking the pilots up was involved. The source is completely unsuspicious of trying a cover up.
As I said, a gross misinterpretation of events.
Servus, Simon
Last edited by Austrian Simon : Today at 23:53.
As I said, a gross misinterpretation of events.
Servus, Simon
Last edited by Austrian Simon : Today at 23:53.
Did they go into holding or just blow past the old Bombay Vor I wonder?
Silly me. "It's just Chinatown Jake."
Nothing to see here folks. Move along! Move along!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,832
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dreamland - a modern Airbus CAN lose comms if 'finger trouble' is involved. If the offside ACP has been used to retune the other box then selection can easily be mismade. I never let the F/O try retuning VHF1 when I'm PNF 'cos mistakes with the selection CAN EASILY BE MADE..... And likewise when I'm PF I never touch VHF1 - unless I've taken it so F/O can make a call on VHF 2 or 3....
Join Date: May 2008
Location: pit
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
come on guys!
For those not used to six legs, first leg 0500 and last flight arrival 2330, six days on two off - or ULR flights, 15 hours in a tube with 5 hours "rest" in a coffin somewhere between toilets and galleys, starting at 0200 and getting 20 hours off and having to sleep during daytime when the roomservice bangs their hoovers on your door and comes in even with "do-not-disturb" hung out to check the mini bar, just to have a nice night 9 hour subcontinental turnaraound the next day ....
For those not used to it this incident might sound strange or foul....
For us it does not. How many times did one of us fall asleep as the other takes a power nap?? How many times do you shreck-up after a microsleep on the ILS after a empty quarter 200km vectoring in the sandpit??
With the kind of managers at the helm today it is no longer an incident, but a consequence. No one wants to hear anything about fatigue and when they do, they hand it over to a quarterpounded medical from dubious origin in their very own medical facility (after scaring the living daylight out of the first such poor guy filing a report asking for more rest) plus they come up with the eternal "....we will look into it" and give the scam over to a surveying commitee with as much field experience and competence as Doubleyou.
We are alone to cope with it and to bear any consequence of this cynism.
For those not used to six legs, first leg 0500 and last flight arrival 2330, six days on two off - or ULR flights, 15 hours in a tube with 5 hours "rest" in a coffin somewhere between toilets and galleys, starting at 0200 and getting 20 hours off and having to sleep during daytime when the roomservice bangs their hoovers on your door and comes in even with "do-not-disturb" hung out to check the mini bar, just to have a nice night 9 hour subcontinental turnaraound the next day ....
For those not used to it this incident might sound strange or foul....
For us it does not. How many times did one of us fall asleep as the other takes a power nap?? How many times do you shreck-up after a microsleep on the ILS after a empty quarter 200km vectoring in the sandpit??
With the kind of managers at the helm today it is no longer an incident, but a consequence. No one wants to hear anything about fatigue and when they do, they hand it over to a quarterpounded medical from dubious origin in their very own medical facility (after scaring the living daylight out of the first such poor guy filing a report asking for more rest) plus they come up with the eternal "....we will look into it" and give the scam over to a surveying commitee with as much field experience and competence as Doubleyou.
We are alone to cope with it and to bear any consequence of this cynism.
PPRuNe supporter
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 1,677
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dreamland - a modern Airbus CAN lose comms if 'finger trouble' is involved. If the offside ACP has been used to retune the other box then selection can easily be mismade. I never let the F/O try retuning VHF1 when I'm PNF 'cos mistakes with the selection CAN EASILY BE MADE..... And likewise when I'm PF I never touch VHF1 - unless I've taken it so F/O can make a call on VHF 2 or 3....
Dreamland,
From the CAA:
From the CAA:
'Sleeping' Receivers
A series of incidents has been reported where ATC was unable to contact an aircraft that had previously established two-way communication with the ground controller. In almost every case, satisfactory reception was only restored after a transmission from the affected aircraft. ... The CAA is aware of more than 250 incidents of missed calls since 1999. CAA Air Traffic specialists led a team with representatives from NATS, EUROCONTROL, Thales and British Airways to investigate this issue and recommend actions to CAA to address 'sleeping receivers' causing prolonged loss of communication.
The investigation revealed that on a small but critical percentage of occasions, the aircraft communications transceiver failed to return from the transmitting to the receiving state. To mitigate this problem, one transceiver manufacturer has devised and published a non-mandatory service bulletin. The recent incorporation of this service bulletin into the ATC transceivers carried by a major UK airline has proved to be completely successful, but the CAA believes that this problem is very likely to be replicated in other transceivers...
A series of incidents has been reported where ATC was unable to contact an aircraft that had previously established two-way communication with the ground controller. In almost every case, satisfactory reception was only restored after a transmission from the affected aircraft. ... The CAA is aware of more than 250 incidents of missed calls since 1999. CAA Air Traffic specialists led a team with representatives from NATS, EUROCONTROL, Thales and British Airways to investigate this issue and recommend actions to CAA to address 'sleeping receivers' causing prolonged loss of communication.
The investigation revealed that on a small but critical percentage of occasions, the aircraft communications transceiver failed to return from the transmitting to the receiving state. To mitigate this problem, one transceiver manufacturer has devised and published a non-mandatory service bulletin. The recent incorporation of this service bulletin into the ATC transceivers carried by a major UK airline has proved to be completely successful, but the CAA believes that this problem is very likely to be replicated in other transceivers...
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: away
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spot on, pool!
And there are "airlines", in India, for example, that roster you on a 6 days ON/6 sectors ops, and then give you ONE day OFF!
And then do it again, and again........... what about that?
With ever more effective bean-counters squizzing last drops of our life juice left, pilots are nowadays pushed to work longer hours then cashier at the drugstore, or truck drivers in europe, for that matter....... I wonder what would the travelling public say, if they know the truth?
In those countries where "economies are on the rise" as they like to percieve, coupled with total disrespect for bacis workers rights (and no-one to defend you), pushing pilots to work BEYOND the phisiological limits of our bodies is the norm.....
And yes, we are left ourselves to deal with the problem!
LAst but not least, the guys in the boardroom don't give a
of positively certain long term health impact on pilot population being abused in such a manner!
Time to wake up
And there are "airlines", in India, for example, that roster you on a 6 days ON/6 sectors ops, and then give you ONE day OFF!
And then do it again, and again........... what about that?
With ever more effective bean-counters squizzing last drops of our life juice left, pilots are nowadays pushed to work longer hours then cashier at the drugstore, or truck drivers in europe, for that matter....... I wonder what would the travelling public say, if they know the truth?
In those countries where "economies are on the rise" as they like to percieve, coupled with total disrespect for bacis workers rights (and no-one to defend you), pushing pilots to work BEYOND the phisiological limits of our bodies is the norm.....
And yes, we are left ourselves to deal with the problem!
LAst but not least, the guys in the boardroom don't give a
of positively certain long term health impact on pilot population being abused in such a manner! Time to wake up
It Happened to Me
About 1964, I was climbing out of San Juan around midnight in a Four-Engine Turboprop. The aircraft commander, the co-pilot (yours truly) and
the flight engineer all fell asleep. I woke up and discovered the other two guys asleep and we were several thousand feet above our planned level off altitude. Stuff happens.
the flight engineer all fell asleep. I woke up and discovered the other two guys asleep and we were several thousand feet above our planned level off altitude. Stuff happens.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Aruba
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dan ba
If those rumors are true, well this is just the shorts the movie is yet to come, because a few months back the Min desolved the work and rest period for the flight crews so this the answer to his action.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Scientifically based fatigue risk mangement sytem" "Enhanced data collection"
Are you kidding me!!??
After all these years there is still NO DATA? and so far the risk management has neen UNSCIENTIFIC??!!!
Well,I guess it will be about 10 years for them to collect data and then analyze it 'scientifically'.So my next flight in an airliner will be in 2018-----.
Just goes to show---between operators and regulators we will continue falling between stools or--is it---stalling between fools???
At any rate ,stupid is as stupid does.
Alt3.
Are you kidding me!!??
After all these years there is still NO DATA? and so far the risk management has neen UNSCIENTIFIC??!!!Well,I guess it will be about 10 years for them to collect data and then analyze it 'scientifically'.So my next flight in an airliner will be in 2018-----
.Just goes to show---between operators and regulators we will continue falling between stools or--is it---stalling between fools???
At any rate ,stupid is as stupid does.
Alt3.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
God bless America.
Here's another recent news item about an Indian aviation safety issue:
India grounds drunk pilots
By Bappa Majumdar June 26, 2008 12:13pm
AROUND 50 pilots each year in India are being grounded because they had consumed alcohol before taking a flight, say the country's civil aviation authorities.
Dozens of pilots are found to have consumed alcohol during routine pre-medical tests every year in India, said the Director General of Civil Aviation, Kanu Gohain.
A flight from India's capital to the eastern city of Patna was cancelled last Saturday after a routine medical test on crew members revealed the pilot had consumed alcohol.
"We do catch pilots who had taken alcohol routinely and so does the airlines," said Mr Gohain.
"We have strict guidelines for alcohol intake and any operating crew is pulled up immediately, and the airlines too can punish crew members," he said by telephone from Mumbai.
Civil aviation rules specify that pilots and cabin crew cannot consume alcohol 12 hours before taking a flight.
A pilot can be grounded for three months and he can lose his license if he repeats the mistake again, said Mr Gohain...
By Bappa Majumdar June 26, 2008 12:13pm
AROUND 50 pilots each year in India are being grounded because they had consumed alcohol before taking a flight, say the country's civil aviation authorities.
Dozens of pilots are found to have consumed alcohol during routine pre-medical tests every year in India, said the Director General of Civil Aviation, Kanu Gohain.
A flight from India's capital to the eastern city of Patna was cancelled last Saturday after a routine medical test on crew members revealed the pilot had consumed alcohol.
"We do catch pilots who had taken alcohol routinely and so does the airlines," said Mr Gohain.
"We have strict guidelines for alcohol intake and any operating crew is pulled up immediately, and the airlines too can punish crew members," he said by telephone from Mumbai.
Civil aviation rules specify that pilots and cabin crew cannot consume alcohol 12 hours before taking a flight.
A pilot can be grounded for three months and he can lose his license if he repeats the mistake again, said Mr Gohain...
Indian aviation with the boom is reaching the size of a major U.S. carrier, 50 pilots testing drunk a year would be a lot in my experience.