Engineneer death in Tenerife South during engine test
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This clip may be of interest to some of you. It has little to do with the recent tragedy but thought it might give some readers an insight/appreciation of the power that can be involved. Mods - if considered unrelated - please delete.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waDeveWle54
Note - the engine in the clip above is a General Electric CF6-80C2B6.
Its rated thrust is 60,060lbs. It is fitted to a 767-300. This engine is not a FADEC type - it has old school throttle cables and an old-style fuel control. Consequently they need fairly regular ground runs (and often to take-off power) whenever major components are replaced, faulty or if control cable rigging takes place.
Please note that a zoom was used to film this.
Maintenance manual stipulates personnel to remain 18ft (5.5 metres) away from the inlet cowl lip at take-off setting. (we almost always are a lot further away than that)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waDeveWle54
Note - the engine in the clip above is a General Electric CF6-80C2B6.
Its rated thrust is 60,060lbs. It is fitted to a 767-300. This engine is not a FADEC type - it has old school throttle cables and an old-style fuel control. Consequently they need fairly regular ground runs (and often to take-off power) whenever major components are replaced, faulty or if control cable rigging takes place.
Please note that a zoom was used to film this.
Maintenance manual stipulates personnel to remain 18ft (5.5 metres) away from the inlet cowl lip at take-off setting. (we almost always are a lot further away than that)
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Its sad to say,but there are a few individuals i know that tend to often
"overlook/dismiss" these requirements as they are always under pressure to get the job done!! All well and good,until something tragic happens.....then see how much support you get from those above you!!
"overlook/dismiss" these requirements as they are always under pressure to get the job done!! All well and good,until something tragic happens.....then see how much support you get from those above you!!
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Very sad and a reminder to all of us that work around aircraft engines, I have spent 30 years working in close proximity to rotors and turbines and still today I treat any aircraft, lights on, with utmost respect, I even double check airliners with APUs running. when training new staff I really try and hammer home the point to them, Something that all us wrinklies should do and maybe we can stop needless deaths like this.
Out of interest, how on earth do you keep an airliner on a full power engine run from moving forward ? and if you just run one engine at full power does it put any strain on the airframe / undercarriage / tyres. Just interested !
Out of interest, how on earth do you keep an airliner on a full power engine run from moving forward ? and if you just run one engine at full power does it put any strain on the airframe / undercarriage / tyres. Just interested !
You cannot just run one engine (on say a twin engined aircraft) at high power.
Both engines have to be run to equalise the stresses.
Another terrible tragedy in TFS........I would just echo other comments that there is never a technical need to be anywhere near an engine at anything above idle power.
Both engines have to be run to equalise the stresses.
Another terrible tragedy in TFS........I would just echo other comments that there is never a technical need to be anywhere near an engine at anything above idle power.
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SASKATOON9999
With regard what an engine guard looks like,well they are basically a steel meshed box on a set of wheels....the guards would have a steelwork frame with meshed sides/front and base. The engine side of this "box" would usually profiled to go around the engine intake cowl.
Simple to use,you just wheel them into position,so that the engine intake is just inside the "box"...lock down the brakes on the wheels so it doesn't move whilst the engine is running and off you go!
With regard what an engine guard looks like,well they are basically a steel meshed box on a set of wheels....the guards would have a steelwork frame with meshed sides/front and base. The engine side of this "box" would usually profiled to go around the engine intake cowl.
Simple to use,you just wheel them into position,so that the engine intake is just inside the "box"...lock down the brakes on the wheels so it doesn't move whilst the engine is running and off you go!
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The true problem is....all the old folks have retired, you remember them, some of their friends were sucked right through jet engines in the 50's and 60's...now the new generation of ground engineers have to learn the hard way that a large turbine engine is like a very big Hoover...thump...everything close gets minced up, sliced and diced, quite nicely.
One wonders...do these new guys get ANY type of training on these factors, today?
And IF not, WHY not?
One wonders...do these new guys get ANY type of training on these factors, today?
And IF not, WHY not?
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A very sad accident and my thoughts go out to the family. Contributors to this thread are quite correct, larger fans, increased engine efficiency, less need to go anywhere near an engine at anything above idle power, yet these terrible accidents still happen and will continue to happen.
Our company has taken this unfortunate accident on board and once more information is known, we will be using the information to relate to our staff attending human factors training. We are also reviewing our procedures to ensure that all staff involved with EGR are fully aware of the potential risks.
As apprentices we learnt how to operate in such dangerous conditions by being taught by the old hands that worked on Lancasters, Yorks etc. This was taught rigidly as part of an Apprenticeship which lasted four years. Unfortuntalely, fast tracking people to become engineers can miss out exposure to such important lessons as how to behave and work in dangerous environments such as EGR, gear retractions, control surface movement checks, pressurisation checks etc etc.
Yes, use intake guards if they are available, but in 35 years working in commercial aircraft maintenance worldwide I have rarely seen them being available. Many is the time that you are doing EGR in places that do not have any or limited engineering facilities and then you rely on what you were taught and ensure that those working with you are fully briefed and protected during the EGR. The key is very good communication and understanding both before and during the EGR with all involved.
Temps
Our company has taken this unfortunate accident on board and once more information is known, we will be using the information to relate to our staff attending human factors training. We are also reviewing our procedures to ensure that all staff involved with EGR are fully aware of the potential risks.
As apprentices we learnt how to operate in such dangerous conditions by being taught by the old hands that worked on Lancasters, Yorks etc. This was taught rigidly as part of an Apprenticeship which lasted four years. Unfortuntalely, fast tracking people to become engineers can miss out exposure to such important lessons as how to behave and work in dangerous environments such as EGR, gear retractions, control surface movement checks, pressurisation checks etc etc.
Yes, use intake guards if they are available, but in 35 years working in commercial aircraft maintenance worldwide I have rarely seen them being available. Many is the time that you are doing EGR in places that do not have any or limited engineering facilities and then you rely on what you were taught and ensure that those working with you are fully briefed and protected during the EGR. The key is very good communication and understanding both before and during the EGR with all involved.
Temps
Last edited by Tempsford; 20th Jun 2008 at 23:36.
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Somebody (an engineer) mentioned running symmetrical engines to reduce stress when big fans are run up and I remember procedures for the 747 that took the opposite side engine to say 50% while the target engine was run up to rated power. Probably a model specific recommendation. Bet it's not observed very often.
In Fiji, we had an overtemping JT9D-7F loaner engine, and we would taxi to the end of the runway, the mechanics would stick in "flags", they would stand off, and we would run up the engines. It didn't work very well. The assistant mechanics had trouble with this technique, "flags blowing out?" or something. Can anybody explain what this was about? The charter mechanic (who never got his hands dirty) was upset with the competence of these young island mechanics in their ability to follow his directions. After two days of this garbage, the Fiji tower had had enough of us eroding the end of the airport (looked like a volcano behind us) and refused to give us taxi clearance to go do it again! Reflecting now, I'm glad no one got hurt.
Ruined a otherwise great layover though.
Cheers.
In Fiji, we had an overtemping JT9D-7F loaner engine, and we would taxi to the end of the runway, the mechanics would stick in "flags", they would stand off, and we would run up the engines. It didn't work very well. The assistant mechanics had trouble with this technique, "flags blowing out?" or something. Can anybody explain what this was about? The charter mechanic (who never got his hands dirty) was upset with the competence of these young island mechanics in their ability to follow his directions. After two days of this garbage, the Fiji tower had had enough of us eroding the end of the airport (looked like a volcano behind us) and refused to give us taxi clearance to go do it again! Reflecting now, I'm glad no one got hurt.
Ruined a otherwise great layover though.
Cheers.
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The 'flags' would be placed over the various bleed valves on the engine as a visual indicator as to whether or not the bleed valve was working or not.
You then stand at a distance as the engine power is increased to see at what epr the bleed valve closes. It has got to close at the right time or the engine gets hot due to not enough airflow through the engine.
You then stand at a distance as the engine power is increased to see at what epr the bleed valve closes. It has got to close at the right time or the engine gets hot due to not enough airflow through the engine.
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Gather engineers are pouring over the engine today. Not a very nice job.
Reminds me of the worker last year, who was riding a conveyer into a bread oven to remove an obstruction, conveyer belt did not stop as planned and he got toasted.
I hope this engineers family get well looked after.
Reminds me of the worker last year, who was riding a conveyer into a bread oven to remove an obstruction, conveyer belt did not stop as planned and he got toasted.
I hope this engineers family get well looked after.
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When I was a line engineer(B747) we used to run symetrical engines at the same power setting, this was usually done at the noise abatment facilility in Madrid, prior to ANY run I would brief all personel (including the guy on the headset) the brief was always similar but I always emphasised to the guy outside that the closest he could be to the engine at idle (obviously circumstance dependant) would be at the nose gear if high power was required he would disconnect and stand behind the abatement wall, this part was not circumstance dependant.
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At BA LHR we use the clip from U-tube to indicate to ground / ramp staff the issues involved with engine starts and runniing down on stand. That said I still see these people ignoring the rules when they are out on the patch. It is always the same complacency creeps in and often the hearing protectors take away the noise so the threat seems much less.
When in other locations I am alarmed by the complete lack of training given to many of the staff in particular GHA's. It seems we will never learn and the industry should/must take a lesson from the UK construction industry that in 10 years has gone from almost a death daily to only a few per annum.
When in other locations I am alarmed by the complete lack of training given to many of the staff in particular GHA's. It seems we will never learn and the industry should/must take a lesson from the UK construction industry that in 10 years has gone from almost a death daily to only a few per annum.
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Yes post 60 is bad taste and is not related to the thread in anyway!
Digressing dilutes the fact that it is a warning to engineers regardless of age and experience to keep away from engines above idle, or if at idle to never walk across the face of the intake.
People should also be aware of the air evacuating their lungs if you get too close, run guards or not!
Said company on picture do have a line of the walk in area at idle on the cowlings but the manual air valve starter panel is outside the zone!!!
Never did get that!
RIP
Digressing dilutes the fact that it is a warning to engineers regardless of age and experience to keep away from engines above idle, or if at idle to never walk across the face of the intake.
People should also be aware of the air evacuating their lungs if you get too close, run guards or not!
Said company on picture do have a line of the walk in area at idle on the cowlings but the manual air valve starter panel is outside the zone!!!
Never did get that!
RIP
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It's not just the engineers that need the warning. Some of the ground handling crews at MAN have a death wish! I have spoken to several of them over the past few years. I have spoken to their managers and to the airfield ops people but still get far to close for (my) comfort.
R.I.P.
Rgds Dr I
R.I.P.
Rgds Dr I
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The inlet screens we used in the USN on F-4's and A-7's caused surging,false indications,and were a nightmare to inspect and maintain.I remember the poor NDI guys inspecting every weld on every square of mesh screen! probably some of the reasons airlines don't use them.
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Like Dogma, I also very much hope the employer is taking good care of this engineer's family and I see no reason whatsoever for any lawyer to be involved if that good care is done right, and also, if it is done right, then I don't see much point in an investigation other than one to satisfy the family or the equivalent of the local coroner.
Frankly, I would guess that if Prof Ladkin's "why because" type of analysis was applied, this wouldn't rate as an aviation specific accident at all save perhaps the out of date industry attitudes to some aspects of ground ops safety. There are a thousand industries with machines to fall into which would inevitably swallow a man as soon as all means of escape are denied by gravity or some similarly unyielding force.
Does anyone else think a full aviation regulatory investigation would teach us anything worthwhile that we don't already know?
Re post #26, this wasn't military so what beers are stood in squadron bars is of no interest on this thread I suggest, even if they've undoubtedly got all the t-shirts.
24 summers just isn't enough for most people to even appreciate what it means to be young...let alone to lose your life because your olders and betters still haven't learned what it is to be wise.
Frankly, I would guess that if Prof Ladkin's "why because" type of analysis was applied, this wouldn't rate as an aviation specific accident at all save perhaps the out of date industry attitudes to some aspects of ground ops safety. There are a thousand industries with machines to fall into which would inevitably swallow a man as soon as all means of escape are denied by gravity or some similarly unyielding force.
Does anyone else think a full aviation regulatory investigation would teach us anything worthwhile that we don't already know?
Re post #26, this wasn't military so what beers are stood in squadron bars is of no interest on this thread I suggest, even if they've undoubtedly got all the t-shirts.
24 summers just isn't enough for most people to even appreciate what it means to be young...let alone to lose your life because your olders and betters still haven't learned what it is to be wise.