Russian SU27 follow A340
Umm... Interflug, you seem like a bit a sensationalist mate or maybe your not quite sure what he means. But to clear things up a CVN is a (nuclear powered?) aircraft carrier for the US, basically anything that enters within 200 miles of one becomes a 'Target' not the sort of 'Target' you yell "OMG, INCOMING, SHOOT HIM THE FUDGE DOWN!!" but the sort where the captain goes "Theres an unidentified target approaching at 200miles, send some jets up to identify it". Your whole tangent on Irans borders and the ruskies shooting people down for merely being within 200miles really does seem to be a bit sensationalist wouldn't you say?
And its not just an American thing, hell, i've gotten within 2 miles of the boundary of Military Control Zones here in Aus and they've felt the need to contact me cause i happened to be a couple of degrees off my planned route, the boys and girls in blues and greens and are just making their list and checking it twice!! Nothing wrong with that in my opinion if it keeps me cozy and they aren't just doing it to be pratts!!
And in all fairness and as harsh as it sounds, those same children signed up knowing full well they could be sent into a warzone they have no belief in. Defence is merely an easy word to type on the budget next to that big ol' fancy number you got there, don't take it for its literal meaning.
Sounds like the russians made a bit of a mistake in sending the jets up without telling anyone, perhaps it was just the pilots taking too much perogative. Honestly though i don't think any of us really know what happened or why, nor will we get the full story out of it. IMHO it sounds like a bit of muscle flexing, wouldn't be the first time in the last few months!!
And its not just an American thing, hell, i've gotten within 2 miles of the boundary of Military Control Zones here in Aus and they've felt the need to contact me cause i happened to be a couple of degrees off my planned route, the boys and girls in blues and greens and are just making their list and checking it twice!! Nothing wrong with that in my opinion if it keeps me cozy and they aren't just doing it to be pratts!!
And in all fairness and as harsh as it sounds, those same children signed up knowing full well they could be sent into a warzone they have no belief in. Defence is merely an easy word to type on the budget next to that big ol' fancy number you got there, don't take it for its literal meaning.
Sounds like the russians made a bit of a mistake in sending the jets up without telling anyone, perhaps it was just the pilots taking too much perogative. Honestly though i don't think any of us really know what happened or why, nor will we get the full story out of it. IMHO it sounds like a bit of muscle flexing, wouldn't be the first time in the last few months!!
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Ixixly, my comments were based on the shooting of a civilian IranAir A300 by the USS Vincennes, as previously mentioned in this thread. I don't think sensationalist at all, since that what you ridicule exactly happened, "SHOOT HIM THE FUDGE DOWN". If they had contacted the plane and/or sent fighters up for identification the 290 innocent people would still be alive. Nothing sensationalist in just mentioning the facts IMO.
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The USS Vincennes was a guided missile cruiser and had no aircraft (other than a helicopter that had already been under fire), and the circumstances of that issue were significantly different to this.
If anything it caused an update in protocol to prevent issues like these, in short through improved communication and positive identification. (communicating on the correct frequencies, providing headings the airliner would understand rather than bearing to ship, etc.)
Perhaps the question should be what would a poll state here regarding sufficient communication of military and commercial operations vis a vis presence in airspace, intent, etc? My thought... No point operating in the same air on different frequencies....
<personal opinion>
The sense I get regarding the outrage in this forum was not the interception, just the lack of communication regarding said interception... or maybe I am reading too much into this.
I don't see anything wrong with any aircraft being requested to identify itself, either by a soverign nation, aircraft carrier in the ocean, or a fellow civilian aircraft just wanting to know who else is in the sky with them to ensure the appropriate seperation/intent.
</end personal opinion>
If anything it caused an update in protocol to prevent issues like these, in short through improved communication and positive identification. (communicating on the correct frequencies, providing headings the airliner would understand rather than bearing to ship, etc.)
Perhaps the question should be what would a poll state here regarding sufficient communication of military and commercial operations vis a vis presence in airspace, intent, etc? My thought... No point operating in the same air on different frequencies....
<personal opinion>
The sense I get regarding the outrage in this forum was not the interception, just the lack of communication regarding said interception... or maybe I am reading too much into this.
I don't see anything wrong with any aircraft being requested to identify itself, either by a soverign nation, aircraft carrier in the ocean, or a fellow civilian aircraft just wanting to know who else is in the sky with them to ensure the appropriate seperation/intent.
</end personal opinion>
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Care to see the routing of the Korean 707. It was quite the navigation error. The article says they didn't even have INS. Paris to Anchorage seems like a long flight as well. Great circle stuff I suppose.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_...nes_Flight_902
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_...nes_Flight_902
And its not just an American thing, hell, i've gotten within 2 miles of the boundary of Military Control Zones here in Aus and they've felt the need to contact me cause i happened to be a couple of degrees off my planned route, the boys and girls in blues and greens and are just making their list and checking it twice!! Nothing wrong with that in my opinion if it keeps me cozy and they aren't just doing it to be pratts!!
.http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...49-662,00.html
Ahh, then excuse me Interflug, i misread your comments as relating to others not that particular incident. But the rest stands!
And yes Trojan, it certainly makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside! Hahaha, good link, didn't hear about that little gem!!
And yes Trojan, it certainly makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside! Hahaha, good link, didn't hear about that little gem!!
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USS Vincennes
Not defending anybody or anything.
USS Vincennes did not shoot down the A300 for the fun of it.
There had been a series of gun boat attacks on the USN, and vice versa and had been threats to send in a missile to sink the AEGIS cruiser. It is another story that the USS Vincennes crew had been pumped up and a Iranian P3 had taken off at the same time.
The ship was actively trying to defend itself .. and so happened that, as per published transcriptions, that the captain tried to raise the A300 for positive ident. The plane had been squawking in a frequency to which the USN ship didn't have capability to listen to ...
When you get a high adrenaline situation, and in blunders an A300, well, disaster was bound to happen, unless cooler heads had prevailed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
USS Vincennes did not shoot down the A300 for the fun of it.
There had been a series of gun boat attacks on the USN, and vice versa and had been threats to send in a missile to sink the AEGIS cruiser. It is another story that the USS Vincennes crew had been pumped up and a Iranian P3 had taken off at the same time.
The ship was actively trying to defend itself .. and so happened that, as per published transcriptions, that the captain tried to raise the A300 for positive ident. The plane had been squawking in a frequency to which the USN ship didn't have capability to listen to ...
When you get a high adrenaline situation, and in blunders an A300, well, disaster was bound to happen, unless cooler heads had prevailed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
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There had been a series of gun boat attacks on the USN, and vice versa and had been threats to send in a missile to sink the AEGIS cruiser. It is another story that the USS Vincennes crew had been pumped up and a Iranian P3 had taken off at the same time.
The ship was actively trying to defend itself .. and so happened that, as per published transcriptions, that the captain tried to raise the A300 for positive ident. The plane had been squawking in a frequency to which the USN ship didn't have capability to listen to ...
The ship was actively trying to defend itself .. and so happened that, as per published transcriptions, that the captain tried to raise the A300 for positive ident. The plane had been squawking in a frequency to which the USN ship didn't have capability to listen to ...
How minor in comparison is the uneventful following of an A340 by SU-27 fighters over their own territory.
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Over territory stolen by Soviet Union from Finland
ZbV
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Until 1917 we where a grand duchy under Russia and until that Finland was one country with Sweden. Learn your history and the meaning of heimosota (Tribalwar 1918-1922) as these had nothing to do with Soviet Union invading Finland in 1939. Perhaps Molotov-Ribbentrop accord was the more likely cause. When it comes to irritating Russians, I could not care less. Being big does not give an excuse to be a bully.
Regarding the interception of the A340. It was a regular/Normal mission for the Russians, or so they say. Wether they got excited and went for a closer look of Finnair is another thing or this is a new way to show Russian airpower to foreigners is another. Regardless, they where seen and they went away. No harm done.
Regarding the interception of the A340. It was a regular/Normal mission for the Russians, or so they say. Wether they got excited and went for a closer look of Finnair is another thing or this is a new way to show Russian airpower to foreigners is another. Regardless, they where seen and they went away. No harm done.
Last edited by JJflyer; 11th Jun 2008 at 03:06.
Finlandīs pre-1939 borders never went as far east as "half way between Lake Ladoga and Lake Onega", so the intercept definitely took place in genuine Russian airspace. Only about one third of Lake Ladoga used to belong to Finland before WW II. See this map, where areas annexed by the USSR after the war are marked in dark green:
http://www.plappi.fi/kunnat/salla/ky...n_kartta_1939/
http://www.plappi.fi/kunnat/salla/ky...n_kartta_1939/
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And why any P.M. travels on a scheduled flight is also unbelievable, but that is another matter.
They consider a scheduled flight to be more financially prudent, besides, much of Scandinavia is known to be diplomatically neutral, so there's no reason for them to be concerned. They trust their airlines, as opposed to our government.
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CIA agents on board and MIA cameras in the cargo hold mate . And a bit of alien goo from area 51 as well . Can't blame them really .
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No need blame that one on the US. It just shows what kind of distinguished company US actually joined with IR655.
Remembering everything that Reagan once said about USSR after KAL007, it must surely apply to U.S. at least to the same extent after IR655.
Remembering everything that Reagan once said about USSR after KAL007, it must surely apply to U.S. at least to the same extent after IR655.
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KAL 007: flying at night hundreds of miles off course for hours over interceptor's territory overflying no-fly zones over strategic military installations. airplane did not react to signal flares.
IR 655: flying in daylight on a published route in a published international corridor still inside home territory.
Both were not positively identified as civilian airliners according to claims by interceptors.
Who likes to compare? ;-)
IR 655: flying in daylight on a published route in a published international corridor still inside home territory.
Both were not positively identified as civilian airliners according to claims by interceptors.
Who likes to compare? ;-)
Last edited by Interflug; 12th Jun 2008 at 13:49.
