CAP 371 Amendments - Sold down the line ?
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Just scanned this topic and was wondering, with the several mentions that the JAR FTL's get has anyone got any idea what the proposals are? In terms of the "representations" being made to the CAA concerning the revisions to CAP371 I am led to believe that it is directed from the UK DFO'S for various airlines who meet to discuss the impact of such things as this and RVSM etc. So it would appear that knowing who is attending these meetings and from which companies would help to answer who is shaping our industry. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
[ 25 February 2002: Message edited by: Nobert Colon ]</p>
[ 25 February 2002: Message edited by: Nobert Colon ]</p>
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Nobert: See the post 'UK Chief Pilots and the Old Boy network'.
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Knowing who these DFO's are is certainly relevant. But just imagine the implication for your future if your name was mentioned in front of them in a negative context. They are very influential people - like No 10 Downing St vs the DTLR! Presumably these guys have co-ordinated a response to the CAP 371 amendment.
This being to their commercial benefit and the detriment of public safety.
[ 25 February 2002: Message edited by: Son Of Piltdown ]</p>
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Knowing who these DFO's are is certainly relevant. But just imagine the implication for your future if your name was mentioned in front of them in a negative context. They are very influential people - like No 10 Downing St vs the DTLR! Presumably these guys have co-ordinated a response to the CAP 371 amendment.
This being to their commercial benefit and the detriment of public safety.
[ 25 February 2002: Message edited by: Son Of Piltdown ]</p>
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Wig
The UK Airlines had just come out of months of negotiating with Jar Operators over an EU FTL.. .When they raised CAA related issues such as reduced FDP given the amount of sectors flown. .(medical evidence available to show awareness reduced the more sectors operated) and minor . .things like early / late rules, the EU Airlines just laughed and said "we've been doing it for XX years so it can't be dangerous". You can perhaps understand their frustration that the CAA are attempting to use selective medical advice to adapt CAP371.
The UK Airlines had just come out of months of negotiating with Jar Operators over an EU FTL.. .When they raised CAA related issues such as reduced FDP given the amount of sectors flown. .(medical evidence available to show awareness reduced the more sectors operated) and minor . .things like early / late rules, the EU Airlines just laughed and said "we've been doing it for XX years so it can't be dangerous". You can perhaps understand their frustration that the CAA are attempting to use selective medical advice to adapt CAP371.
Thread Starter
Of course, JB007, DHL are a night freight operator and may represent issues outside this thread. Good to hear that they have adopted the FODCOM though and I hope this speaks of a good roster culture for their pilots.
PPRUNE is so very popular because it allows pilots to speak out on issues where their contracts (and the general employment culture of the industry) would sanction them. Doctors, our professional cousins, have an easier time of it whereas Airline pilots, being owned by heads of industry are fully gagged. The point being that, if we want better rosters and safety regulation we should use PPRUNE, with its practice of invisibility and integrity, to lobby our interests.
Banzai Chap:-
>>the EU Airlines just laughed and said "we've been doing it for XX years so it can't be dangerous<<
JAR just might make working conditions a lot worse. I reckon we will go the way of train drivers if the heads of industry get their way.
PPRUNE is so very popular because it allows pilots to speak out on issues where their contracts (and the general employment culture of the industry) would sanction them. Doctors, our professional cousins, have an easier time of it whereas Airline pilots, being owned by heads of industry are fully gagged. The point being that, if we want better rosters and safety regulation we should use PPRUNE, with its practice of invisibility and integrity, to lobby our interests.
Banzai Chap:-
>>the EU Airlines just laughed and said "we've been doing it for XX years so it can't be dangerous<<
JAR just might make working conditions a lot worse. I reckon we will go the way of train drivers if the heads of industry get their way.
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Considering that the EU was to adopt a single FTL scheme about ten years ago, we seem to have progressed very nicely to a situation where none of us know any more now than we did then.
I seem to recall that the main stumbling block to the implementation was the UK refusal to accept the Limitations.
As mentioned above, most of Europe work to very different rules than we do here in the UK.
How do you like the idea of a 24hour period from midnight to midnight being defined as a day off. In Germany they base this on Zulu time!
You can land at 0130 local in the summer and report 24 and a half hours later having had a day off inbetween. Like the sound of that?
No monthly limit on flying hours. Often 130 hours are flown each month in summer.
That is just two examples of the JAA OPS rules as proposed by the German authority.
When the FTL rules apply to us all here in UK there will be more squealing and writhing than ever seen before in this country!when
You have been warned. The CAA/Cap 371, amended or not, is only temporary!!
I seem to recall that the main stumbling block to the implementation was the UK refusal to accept the Limitations.
As mentioned above, most of Europe work to very different rules than we do here in the UK.
How do you like the idea of a 24hour period from midnight to midnight being defined as a day off. In Germany they base this on Zulu time!
You can land at 0130 local in the summer and report 24 and a half hours later having had a day off inbetween. Like the sound of that?
No monthly limit on flying hours. Often 130 hours are flown each month in summer.
That is just two examples of the JAA OPS rules as proposed by the German authority.
When the FTL rules apply to us all here in UK there will be more squealing and writhing than ever seen before in this country!when
You have been warned. The CAA/Cap 371, amended or not, is only temporary!!
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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So Rubic; is what you are saying is that the German limitations are a load of nonsense?
I go along with that.
Ask you neighbour what his definition of a day off is.
I go along with that.
Ask you neighbour what his definition of a day off is.
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Well-said Maximum.
As to the question of why we wanted to be pilots in the first place:
Lets just say that as you get older and wiser and have more responsibilities and commitments; priorities change. What was acceptable as a young wanabee becomes less and less acceptable.
There has been and will continue to be an erosion of the terms and conditions, and lifestyle of this profession, provided we allow it.
At the moment most of us are pleased to have a job, myself included. That does not mean we enjoy what is happening, and given a good alternative many would get out.
The fact remains that as long as there are others who for whatever reason are willing to do the job and accept whatever crap is thrown at them by the ever more demanding managements, management abuse will contiue.
Question is will there come a point when so few people want to do the job that managements are forced to change their exploitation of us?
If you want to have any control on when you go on holiday, if you can accept a dinner invitation, or even attend a friends wedding or even your own childs Christening.
This might not be the career for you.
Wanabees beware!
As to the question of why we wanted to be pilots in the first place:
Lets just say that as you get older and wiser and have more responsibilities and commitments; priorities change. What was acceptable as a young wanabee becomes less and less acceptable.
There has been and will continue to be an erosion of the terms and conditions, and lifestyle of this profession, provided we allow it.
At the moment most of us are pleased to have a job, myself included. That does not mean we enjoy what is happening, and given a good alternative many would get out.
The fact remains that as long as there are others who for whatever reason are willing to do the job and accept whatever crap is thrown at them by the ever more demanding managements, management abuse will contiue.
Question is will there come a point when so few people want to do the job that managements are forced to change their exploitation of us?
If you want to have any control on when you go on holiday, if you can accept a dinner invitation, or even attend a friends wedding or even your own childs Christening.
This might not be the career for you.
Wanabees beware!
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The trouble is that most rostering officers do not read the "Guide to Rostering Officers" at the rear of Cap 371 where it states "Do not lose the good will of your crews.....and be fair"
And some CEOs want complete control of your life!
And some CEOs want complete control of your life!
