Jettison over Berlin
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Jettison over Berlin
Heard an AF flight in the air last night with medical emergency requesting ATC permission to dump fuel, which was denied as the a/c was over Berlin. However, Capt insisted he'd dump fuel beforing landing 08 (Tegel?) and said there was no time for the ATC suggested radar vectors away from city. ATC reluctantly agreed. I am not a long-haul pilot widebody, so this is out of my depth, but can anyone enlighten me why it is not possible to simply land overweight and have a heavy landing check done, rather than jeopardising the short -and long term health of the Berlin population, with carcinogenic hydrocarbon compounds lingering in the environment for years to come?
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So long as the dumping is done at a reasonable altitude, almost all will evaporate and disperse well before it gets to earth... and that which does get to earth will be blown by the wind - so "over the city" becomes academic.
I am almost certain the residents at Berlin are far more at risk from the millions of cars / buildings spewing out combustion products than a small amount of unburnt hydrcarbons that may, or may not, have arrived in Berlin.
Landing overweight is "emergency" only. The medical situation may have lent itself to that, but not at the expense of using a fitted Fuel Dump system...
NoD
I am almost certain the residents at Berlin are far more at risk from the millions of cars / buildings spewing out combustion products than a small amount of unburnt hydrcarbons that may, or may not, have arrived in Berlin.
Landing overweight is "emergency" only. The medical situation may have lent itself to that, but not at the expense of using a fitted Fuel Dump system...
NoD
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Comanche,
The problem of landing a heavy over weight is not a structural one (if it is a twin, it has to be able to land at max take off mass for certification, not sure about 4 engine requirments). The main issue is the brakes. If you land heavy, the brakes will overheat and you will lose a lot of your fusible plugs and therefore probably will not be able to taxi off the runway.
So what you have to consider when thinking about landing overweight for a medical emergency is that if you do land over weight you will probably not be able to vacate the runway and maybe even evacuate if you overrun or your brakes catch fire. This will not help the poor person who is dying in the back!
The best bet is to spend a few minutes dumping fuel and then land as near to max landing weight as possible!
Hope this helps!
The problem of landing a heavy over weight is not a structural one (if it is a twin, it has to be able to land at max take off mass for certification, not sure about 4 engine requirments). The main issue is the brakes. If you land heavy, the brakes will overheat and you will lose a lot of your fusible plugs and therefore probably will not be able to taxi off the runway.
So what you have to consider when thinking about landing overweight for a medical emergency is that if you do land over weight you will probably not be able to vacate the runway and maybe even evacuate if you overrun or your brakes catch fire. This will not help the poor person who is dying in the back!
The best bet is to spend a few minutes dumping fuel and then land as near to max landing weight as possible!
Hope this helps!
Last edited by EFIScomp; 27th May 2008 at 10:11.
Controversial, moi?
The main issue is the brakes. If you land heavy, the brakes will overheat and you will loose(sic) alot(sic) of your fusible plugs and therefore probably will not be able to taxi off the runway.
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I know a biz jet operator in Asia who having lost their fusible plugs have not only been able to taxi but also continue to operate the aircraft until its next inspection 
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Ok M.Mouse, but what's the solution ?
Landing overweight seems a larger risk to the aircraft, its' occupants, and quite possibly the local residents.
I'm not so sure about the lack of stuctural worries, and would think the brakes etc a low priority - after all the chap sounds a bit of a hero to me, he by-passed ATC B.S. in attempting to save a life...
Anyway, re. Berlin, "they started it !" ( please take that as 'tongue in cheek' ) !
Actually Kerosene Krauts' suggestion seems eminently sensible - maybe such local knowledge was not available on board, or indeed failed to be passed on by ATC ?
Landing overweight seems a larger risk to the aircraft, its' occupants, and quite possibly the local residents.
I'm not so sure about the lack of stuctural worries, and would think the brakes etc a low priority - after all the chap sounds a bit of a hero to me, he by-passed ATC B.S. in attempting to save a life...
Anyway, re. Berlin, "they started it !" ( please take that as 'tongue in cheek' ) !
Actually Kerosene Krauts' suggestion seems eminently sensible - maybe such local knowledge was not available on board, or indeed failed to be passed on by ATC ?
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Maybe you might wanna go to Leipzig instead. Longer runways, less traffic, hospitals around and AF regional offices.
Because of the proximity of good hospitals, Tegel is probably one of the best airports worldwide for medical diversions if you don't have a specialized helicopter in standby.
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...rather than jeopardising the short -and long term health of the Berlin population, with carcinogenic hydrocarbon compounds lingering in the environment for years to come?
>The Berliners smoke like chimneys, drink like fish and eat high cholesterol meals. I don't think a little jet fuel will bother them.
This (non-smoking) Berliner agrees.
And...
Luckily I wasn't having a barbeque yesterday, or else we aaaalll could have diiiiieeeed!
This (non-smoking) Berliner agrees.
And...
Luckily I wasn't having a barbeque yesterday, or else we aaaalll could have diiiiieeeed!
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So to avoid getting Sam'd, or even shot by a Tornado if one didn't see it off with an airliner, I hope there's a system in place - I am NOT asking what - whereby a genuine emergency can be descriminated from naughty people with evil intentions - or do we just blow away anything a bit dodgy ?! A good job the Berlin ATC didn't...
In the strange few days after 9/11, I knew of a particularly tired & overweight Cessna 172 which was vectored to check out some lost soul near Windsor !
They could only give a rough ident' as the PA-28 with retracts pulled away rapidly - my suggestion of applying an ' Interceptor' zap didn't catch on.
In the strange few days after 9/11, I knew of a particularly tired & overweight Cessna 172 which was vectored to check out some lost soul near Windsor !
They could only give a rough ident' as the PA-28 with retracts pulled away rapidly - my suggestion of applying an ' Interceptor' zap didn't catch on.
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<<Imagine some Lufthansa flight enroute from Frankfurt to the US with a medical emergency onboard spraying fuel over London, no vectors, and insisting to go right into LHR>>
What are e supposed to imagine? I'm an ex Heathrow controller who has seen something similar on several occasions, albeit not Lufthansa. Medical emergencies are treated very seriously by ATC.
What are e supposed to imagine? I'm an ex Heathrow controller who has seen something similar on several occasions, albeit not Lufthansa. Medical emergencies are treated very seriously by ATC.
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Boeing has approved overweight landings (B744) for some time now, especially in cases such as medical emergencies. Of course, airline SOP's may state differently and would override the manufacturers' recommendations.If the landing is not 'firm', then a quick inspection is required, before release to service. However, if the landing is 'firm' then a more extensive check is required.Reducing weight to conform with the placarded max. ldg. wt. should not be restricted to "dire emergency only".
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HD,
A few years back as we were climbing out of London towards STU we heard a BA PAN call - returning to LHR due medical emergency. As we climbed to FL 220 we saw an opposite direction coming towards us, just 1000ft above us, apparntly contrailling. I asked if the the returning a/c was dumping fuel, and Nigel duly replied that he was - news to both ATC and ourselves. We were immediately vectored to the SW to avoid flying into one large kerosene cloud. Dumping fuel should only be done with ATC approval as there are other factors involved other than those on board.
A few years back as we were climbing out of London towards STU we heard a BA PAN call - returning to LHR due medical emergency. As we climbed to FL 220 we saw an opposite direction coming towards us, just 1000ft above us, apparntly contrailling. I asked if the the returning a/c was dumping fuel, and Nigel duly replied that he was - news to both ATC and ourselves. We were immediately vectored to the SW to avoid flying into one large kerosene cloud. Dumping fuel should only be done with ATC approval as there are other factors involved other than those on board.
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All this rhetoric about fuel dumping and overweight landing is truly facinating.
Now !
What about the many aircraft that do not have fuel dump ( And they are legion!)
At least it removes all this decision making !
Now !
What about the many aircraft that do not have fuel dump ( And they are legion!)
At least it removes all this decision making !