Runway closed at LHR???
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I say KLM-MD11
I do think you appreciate what happens from an Airside Ops point of view when dealing with Burst Tyres. In this case the Ethiopian did clear the runway which was first of all good news. The problem were the burst tyres, now normally when an aircraft tyre bursts it is normally the tread that detaches itself and these are normally big pieces which can be retrieved in 2 to 3 mins and the runway is then given back to ATC as being available.
In this case 2 tyres were totally shredded with debris from AB12 to A7.
We had approx 8 ops vehicles, 3 sweepers and 4 street kings ( small sweepers) working their buts off to get the runway back. All in all a 45 minute closure was not that bad considering the mess. As you can see from the picture the wheel was on its rims so it would not have been a quick tow anyway as a jack up and tyre chnage was required. He also lost hydraulics which meant the area had to be cleaned as well before you pilots start reporting the taxiway as slippery.
Perhaps its best to ask the question in not such a scarcastic manner in future.
I do think you appreciate what happens from an Airside Ops point of view when dealing with Burst Tyres. In this case the Ethiopian did clear the runway which was first of all good news. The problem were the burst tyres, now normally when an aircraft tyre bursts it is normally the tread that detaches itself and these are normally big pieces which can be retrieved in 2 to 3 mins and the runway is then given back to ATC as being available.
In this case 2 tyres were totally shredded with debris from AB12 to A7.
We had approx 8 ops vehicles, 3 sweepers and 4 street kings ( small sweepers) working their buts off to get the runway back. All in all a 45 minute closure was not that bad considering the mess. As you can see from the picture the wheel was on its rims so it would not have been a quick tow anyway as a jack up and tyre chnage was required. He also lost hydraulics which meant the area had to be cleaned as well before you pilots start reporting the taxiway as slippery.
Perhaps its best to ask the question in not such a scarcastic manner in future.
Last edited by southern duel; 20th May 2008 at 09:03.
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Hi. I sympathise with the problems..Dealt with quite a few burst tyres on the Runway..
Everyone thinks they can do it better. However, I doubt they would know where to start. Yet, it is they who would complain the most if the runway was put back into service too quickly and something was missed.
Everyone thinks they can do it better. However, I doubt they would know where to start. Yet, it is they who would complain the most if the runway was put back into service too quickly and something was missed.
The Runway Count
Hi Southern Dual,
klm-md11’s question was not especially unreasonable: even pilots don’t realise the enormity of runway surfaces, as they flash past 10 – 25 feet below. You need to be in a Cessna 150 or a car to appreciate it.
The situation with one runway closed would be very different at Schiphol. I’m sure that EHAM ATC would be able to cope reasonably well with the remaining five, Gonzo, even allowing for local noise sensitivities?
Given an adequate number of pavements in the South-East, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. With Boris setting against a third runway at LHR, where do we go from here? Ch***w**d? Perhaps the proposal to reclaim land at Foulness/Maplin Sands WAS a mistakenly missed opportunity, although few of us relished the idea at the time.
jotape, I had relatives on your BA052. Thought they must be wrong when they told us the aircraft skidded to a halt coming on to a remote stand at T4. Was the apron slippery?
klm-md11’s question was not especially unreasonable: even pilots don’t realise the enormity of runway surfaces, as they flash past 10 – 25 feet below. You need to be in a Cessna 150 or a car to appreciate it.
The situation with one runway closed would be very different at Schiphol. I’m sure that EHAM ATC would be able to cope reasonably well with the remaining five, Gonzo, even allowing for local noise sensitivities?
Given an adequate number of pavements in the South-East, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. With Boris setting against a third runway at LHR, where do we go from here? Ch***w**d? Perhaps the proposal to reclaim land at Foulness/Maplin Sands WAS a mistakenly missed opportunity, although few of us relished the idea at the time.
jotape, I had relatives on your BA052. Thought they must be wrong when they told us the aircraft skidded to a halt coming on to a remote stand at T4. Was the apron slippery?
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It seems that travelling today is very fragile, there are so many components which are open to fail causing delays etc.
...or probably make it worse!
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Chris,
Not sure what you're saying here....was anyone criticising EHAM ATC?...Certainly wasn't me. Can you elucidate?
The situation with one runway closed would be very different at Schiphol. I’m sure that EHAM ATC would be able to cope reasonably well with the remaining five, Gonzo, even allowing for local noise sensitivities?
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The procedure is in place with BA because we are (were?) aware that tug availability was only an issue with BA. Perhaps you ought to pursue this through your company and whoever liaises with ATC.
I have already passed on to management to bring this up at the next meeting, so lets see what happens.
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Currently, the problem we have is that in situations where we have heavy outbound delay then the Tower Supervisor is far too busy to contact all the ground handling agents to tell them where to put the tugs. In fact, we don't necessarily know who handles whom.
However, seems like there's something to look at here in the short/medium term if the stories surrounding CDM are true!
However, seems like there's something to look at here in the short/medium term if the stories surrounding CDM are true!
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I first read about CDM a few years ago when Eurocontrol produced a report on it, is it in place? I have also heard BA have someone up the tower now for better decision making on ground handling, does that help for allocating tugs etc during these sort of situations
I am no longer in an Operational role at Heathrow so out of touch with that stuff a bit now!
I am no longer in an Operational role at Heathrow so out of touch with that stuff a bit now!
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I don't get it. How much i love Heathrow but!
Jeeze why does Gatwick handle Situations with 3/4 the capacity of Heathrow with 1 Runway Operational or out and Heathrow Struggles with 2 Runways even if they are both available. But seriously. Why don't they forget HACAN and get as many in and out as possible from the Runway left and not slow the rate.
Would have been Interesting if 09R was taken off and 09L had to be used. Would have been the first in how many Decades ?
Jeeze why does Gatwick handle Situations with 3/4 the capacity of Heathrow with 1 Runway Operational or out and Heathrow Struggles with 2 Runways even if they are both available. But seriously. Why don't they forget HACAN and get as many in and out as possible from the Runway left and not slow the rate.
Would have been Interesting if 09R was taken off and 09L had to be used. Would have been the first in how many Decades
?
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Why don't they forget HACAN and get as many in and out as possible from the Runway left and not slow the rate
As for when did we go 09L single last, that would've been about 3 years ago, not decades. A KLM 737 blocked 09R for about an hour on a late summers afternoon.
Last edited by Yellow Snow; 21st May 2008 at 22:21. Reason: Too harsh, I should read profile's before pulling trigger!!
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True - HACAN SUCK!
But you have to agree "No offense to the ATC you guys do" but when a little bit of snow or fog comes Gatwick handles better.
For Example when we had snow over the easter full term holiday. Gatwick Runs say 30+ Movements per hour and Heathrow 50+ a 20 a/c different.
Ok so Gatwick does have 2 but can only use one due to the proximity of it at any one time.
Heathrow always seems to struggle with one runway in ops or limited operations even with 2 runways. Gatwick has one and runs smoother even with a Runway out of ops.
I get that there is less traffic but there is 2 runways at Heathrow and i really think that problems would be sorted out if they could do mix mode.
Robbie
But you have to agree "No offense to the ATC you guys do" but when a little bit of snow or fog comes Gatwick handles better.
For Example when we had snow over the easter full term holiday. Gatwick Runs say 30+ Movements per hour and Heathrow 50+ a 20 a/c different.
Ok so Gatwick does have 2 but can only use one due to the proximity of it at any one time.
Heathrow always seems to struggle with one runway in ops or limited operations even with 2 runways. Gatwick has one and runs smoother even with a Runway out of ops.
I get that there is less traffic but there is 2 runways at Heathrow and i really think that problems would be sorted out if they could do mix mode.
Robbie
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HeathrowAirport,
You've partly answered your own question there by alluding to the higher traffic levels at LL.
However, more importantly, the airspace that Heathrow arrivals operate in is vastly more complex than that at Gatwick. We have acres of airspace to play with at Gatwick, with very little conflict with any other traffic. This is not the case at Heathrow where arrivals and deaprtures operate in some of the most congested airspace in Europe/the world.
Also, the ground movement situation is also vastly more complex than that at Gatwick...I imagine doing GMC during full-on mixed mode must be a nightmare. Perhaps Gonzo could back this up?
You've partly answered your own question there by alluding to the higher traffic levels at LL.
However, more importantly, the airspace that Heathrow arrivals operate in is vastly more complex than that at Gatwick. We have acres of airspace to play with at Gatwick, with very little conflict with any other traffic. This is not the case at Heathrow where arrivals and deaprtures operate in some of the most congested airspace in Europe/the world.
Also, the ground movement situation is also vastly more complex than that at Gatwick...I imagine doing GMC during full-on mixed mode must be a nightmare. Perhaps Gonzo could back this up?
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I imagine doing GMC during full-on mixed mode must be a nightmare. Perhaps Gonzo could back this up?
Can't see it working, myself.
Heathrow Airport, EGLL is scheduled at 99% capacity. I'm not sure what Gatwick is scheduled to, but it's not that high. Believe me, that last 5% is where it gets difficult if anything out of the ordinary happens. It's going back a few years now, but after 11th September 2001 there was a global dip in commercial aviation. EGLL was running at about 10% fewer movements (1150-1200 rather than 1400 per day), and it worked like clockwork and seemed very, very quiet. When any ATC unit (tower, sector etc.....or controller, for that matter) is running at near-capacity, those last few percentage points actually increase workload exponentially.
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Gonzo,
That slight dip looks something like;
2000: 466,815
2001: 463,568
2002: 466,554
2003: 463,650
2004: 475,999
2005: 477,884
2006: 477,030
2007: 481,356 (odd this last one as I am sure that is more than the planning allows!)
(Rounded down taken from ACI)
Mixed Mode, surely it will work haven't you seen the BAA presentation on their website!
All kidding aside should make the old place more interesting for a while!
That slight dip looks something like;
2000: 466,815
2001: 463,568
2002: 466,554
2003: 463,650
2004: 475,999
2005: 477,884
2006: 477,030
2007: 481,356 (odd this last one as I am sure that is more than the planning allows!)
(Rounded down taken from ACI)
Mixed Mode, surely it will work haven't you seen the BAA presentation on their website!
All kidding aside should make the old place more interesting for a while!
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I should clarify my remark...where I said....
I did not mean that Gatwick isn't difficult from an ATC point of view, merely that the 'last 5%' is where it gets exponentially more difficult from a recovery/delay/scheduling point of view.
Just thought I'd get that in before I get lynched next time I visit Gatwick Tower!!!
I'm not sure what Gatwick is scheduled to, but it's not that high. Believe me, that last 5% is where it gets difficult if anything out of the ordinary happens.
Just thought I'd get that in before I get lynched next time I visit Gatwick Tower!!!