ICAO Language Proficiency Tests
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Hi all, this is my first post to his forum.
I myself is a PPL VFR pilot and also a micro light instructor, i.e. the lowest of the low!
For this one however, I feel I have got something to add and/or muddy up the water.
Just for the sake of argument let’s make up the following scenario:
ATC: Level 5 English
Pilot: Level 6 English
A situation develops into an incident, or in worst case, an accident, due to a misunderstanding between the ATC and pilot.
The local CAA comes to the conclusion that the fault of the accident was due to lack of proficiency in the English language.
Logically the ATC, who in this case has the lower level is then automatically to blame for the accident.
Anybody else but me giving this problem a thought?
I myself is a PPL VFR pilot and also a micro light instructor, i.e. the lowest of the low!
For this one however, I feel I have got something to add and/or muddy up the water.
Just for the sake of argument let’s make up the following scenario:
ATC: Level 5 English
Pilot: Level 6 English
A situation develops into an incident, or in worst case, an accident, due to a misunderstanding between the ATC and pilot.
The local CAA comes to the conclusion that the fault of the accident was due to lack of proficiency in the English language.
Logically the ATC, who in this case has the lower level is then automatically to blame for the accident.
Anybody else but me giving this problem a thought?
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hetfield, thats level 3 Hessisch.... ISCH not ich !
MungoP: and you really think the Chad ATC will retrain the guy to an acceptable level? Or rather have nobody reading you old news?
The idea is nice, still I doubt it will change much. But hey, lets have a try!
MungoP: and you really think the Chad ATC will retrain the guy to an acceptable level? Or rather have nobody reading you old news?
The idea is nice, still I doubt it will change much. But hey, lets have a try!
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Got to do it if I want to keep my South African license valid too. Depsite the fact that I wrote my Comm and my ATPL exams and my Radio license in English, and went through the South Afrcian school system with English as first language. Sure it makes sense to someone!!
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Ah ha! NOW I know why some training companies here in Asia are ramping up an Aviation English program...I do believe that I will apply!
Thanks for the update....although as pointed out, it's actually been an ICAO requirement for a while now.
Thanks for the update....although as pointed out, it's actually been an ICAO requirement for a while now.
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Originally Posted by MrBernoulli
You'll have to learn 2 languages to be compliant -
You have to demonstrate copetence in all languages you will have to use.
For many until now, flying to a French airfield at lunch time when only French Language was used or at some others at all times since French Language only is always used simply involved a basic grasp and a crib sheet of common phrases.
Now such pilots will be required to have level 4 competence in French as well as English.
The English requirement applies to International Navigation.....enroute and airports of entry etc. Countries can have national language spoken at non-international airports and to visit you need level 4 of the national language............Russia being a very good example.
Long live the Radion OperaKtor!
Regards,
DFC
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time to bail
crossed all seas
did typeratings in australia, usa, uk, at home of course
instructed americans, british, aussiees, some kind of EU members
wrote books in the one and only aviation slang
could this qualify - or do i have to retire now
did typeratings in australia, usa, uk, at home of course
instructed americans, british, aussiees, some kind of EU members
wrote books in the one and only aviation slang
could this qualify - or do i have to retire now
The Cooler King
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Seriously though folks...no need to panic.
Whilst ICAO has indeed stipulated that you have to be ICAO 4 compliant by March 2008, there is an extension period of two, maybe even three years because this is proving to be much more difficult than originally anticipated.
I am busting my ass off over here at the moment getting everyone up to speed on the ATC end of it, whilst my colleague has been flying up and down and left and right in the GCC testing pilots, controllers and a host of other "industry" people.
Those who are compliant are left alone. Those who are not, get sent to me.
Some need a complete re-education in RT and some even need to go back to General Aviation English courses.
Whilst there is a clear desire from all the authorities in the region to become compliant, it will take a lot longer than 4 months to bring them all the way there.
I have already posted a tome on the "grandfathering" issue a while back.
The most recent news that has almost doubled the workload for RT instructors around the globe is that even native speakers need to be tested because one of the criteria for Level 4 is "proper use of phraseology".
This is going to surprise quite a few native speakers, especially some of those in the US who, despite being fantastic controllers, need to have a serious look at how they say things.
I for one feel that the whole ICAO Levels system is a great idea, however, I do feel that a lot of the human edge of RT may disappear over time.
Whilst ICAO has indeed stipulated that you have to be ICAO 4 compliant by March 2008, there is an extension period of two, maybe even three years because this is proving to be much more difficult than originally anticipated.
I am busting my ass off over here at the moment getting everyone up to speed on the ATC end of it, whilst my colleague has been flying up and down and left and right in the GCC testing pilots, controllers and a host of other "industry" people.
Those who are compliant are left alone. Those who are not, get sent to me.
Some need a complete re-education in RT and some even need to go back to General Aviation English courses.
Whilst there is a clear desire from all the authorities in the region to become compliant, it will take a lot longer than 4 months to bring them all the way there.
I have already posted a tome on the "grandfathering" issue a while back.
The most recent news that has almost doubled the workload for RT instructors around the globe is that even native speakers need to be tested because one of the criteria for Level 4 is "proper use of phraseology".
This is going to surprise quite a few native speakers, especially some of those in the US who, despite being fantastic controllers, need to have a serious look at how they say things.
I for one feel that the whole ICAO Levels system is a great idea, however, I do feel that a lot of the human edge of RT may disappear over time.
Thread Starter
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2-3 years extension won't change anything. Do you think guys will go to UK or US to learn english?.
I am talking about guys who study and/or who did their ATPL in europe(except UK).I did mine in UK, this is why I passed this "level 4 ICAO"requirement.
Spending hours in english books or even going to a school to study english is not enough.
in 2 or 3years we will see the same thing again(deja vu???), and they will have to extend this program again.
I think they will cancel this program or make it much easier for non english native speaker.
Pilots are pretty happy with their RT operator license by knowing some few words in the cockpit.
They won't learn english cuz they don't have the time, the money or the motivation.These english courses are very expensive (6000-7000 pounds and more!) so who is going to pay to learn a better english than just the rudiments?
yes, no need to panic cuz this is utopia!why not russian?, it is one of the 5 ICAO languages.
I am talking about guys who study and/or who did their ATPL in europe(except UK).I did mine in UK, this is why I passed this "level 4 ICAO"requirement.
Spending hours in english books or even going to a school to study english is not enough.
in 2 or 3years we will see the same thing again(deja vu???), and they will have to extend this program again.
I think they will cancel this program or make it much easier for non english native speaker.
Pilots are pretty happy with their RT operator license by knowing some few words in the cockpit.
They won't learn english cuz they don't have the time, the money or the motivation.These english courses are very expensive (6000-7000 pounds and more!) so who is going to pay to learn a better english than just the rudiments?
yes, no need to panic cuz this is utopia!why not russian?, it is one of the 5 ICAO languages.
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Interesting thread there, but for practical purpose, how do we proceed to get that ICAO language level endorsment on a UK JAA licence ?
I read a document on CAA website that pilots having an RT licence would get the grandfathers rights, with an automatic level 4 validation. It may be treated automatically between CAA and operators.
But for individuals, will the CAA send a new licence to the pilots in there database or do each pilot has to apply with CAA for a new endorsment on his licence ?
or maybe it's too early to worry about that if there is a 2-3 years delay as said above ??
I read a document on CAA website that pilots having an RT licence would get the grandfathers rights, with an automatic level 4 validation. It may be treated automatically between CAA and operators.
But for individuals, will the CAA send a new licence to the pilots in there database or do each pilot has to apply with CAA for a new endorsment on his licence ?
or maybe it's too early to worry about that if there is a 2-3 years delay as said above ??
The Cooler King
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All examiners have to be using a system that fills the criteria set out by ICAO.
It's not just a simple case of a teacher coming in and saying yes you are great and then signing you off.
For example....how it is run here is.
I teach an RT course broken into four main areas of learning. Light traffic routine, light traffic non routine, heavy traffic routine and heavy traffic non routine.
All candidates are assessed using a Cambridge University test, which gives us a fairly accurate idea of their overall English level.
Research done by the provider has set a knowledge yardstick between the result of the above and the relationship between that and the subject's RT ability.
Any candidate who falls below that is put into a General Aviation Language Course for ten weeks and then moves to the RT course. If they are assistant controllers or student pilots, I recommend that they finish the Gen courses and go back to either their ATPL notes, Aerodrome course notes or ICAO 051 notes before they go on the RT course so that the procedures and the reasons behind them are fresh in their minds.
Then, after the RT course is done, they sit a proficiency test which consists of RT checks and interviews. These sessions are recorded and marked and sent away to three or sometimes four independent examiners who score them. The backgrounds of the examiners are related to the industry and they are also trained for language testing. They are also not in the same country! They are over 5000 miles away! This is an added bonus as there is no in-house marking.
The four scores through almost twenty parameters are usually very similar and any large discrepancies go through an appeal system. This to my knowledge however has not been required yet.
The time extension was given purely from the instructors requests as we just can't get everyone through the systems on time.
Any new controllers being employed over here will have to be ICAO compliant before sitting in a tower or on a scope.
Assistant controllers are being asked to have at least IELTS 5.5 before joining a cadet program.
It's not just a simple case of a teacher coming in and saying yes you are great and then signing you off.
For example....how it is run here is.
I teach an RT course broken into four main areas of learning. Light traffic routine, light traffic non routine, heavy traffic routine and heavy traffic non routine.
All candidates are assessed using a Cambridge University test, which gives us a fairly accurate idea of their overall English level.
Research done by the provider has set a knowledge yardstick between the result of the above and the relationship between that and the subject's RT ability.
Any candidate who falls below that is put into a General Aviation Language Course for ten weeks and then moves to the RT course. If they are assistant controllers or student pilots, I recommend that they finish the Gen courses and go back to either their ATPL notes, Aerodrome course notes or ICAO 051 notes before they go on the RT course so that the procedures and the reasons behind them are fresh in their minds.
Then, after the RT course is done, they sit a proficiency test which consists of RT checks and interviews. These sessions are recorded and marked and sent away to three or sometimes four independent examiners who score them. The backgrounds of the examiners are related to the industry and they are also trained for language testing. They are also not in the same country! They are over 5000 miles away! This is an added bonus as there is no in-house marking.
The four scores through almost twenty parameters are usually very similar and any large discrepancies go through an appeal system. This to my knowledge however has not been required yet.
The time extension was given purely from the instructors requests as we just can't get everyone through the systems on time.
Any new controllers being employed over here will have to be ICAO compliant before sitting in a tower or on a scope.
Assistant controllers are being asked to have at least IELTS 5.5 before joining a cadet program.
Last edited by Farrell; 21st Nov 2007 at 15:28.
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This requirement is long overdue... comms are right up there as one of the most prominent safety issues, if the quality of our radios was consistently causing us to misinterpret instructions and leave us unaware of the intentions of other aircraft the manufacturers would be investing billions to improve them (and passing the cost on to us) so where is the sense in accepting a level of reduced safety due to poor comms simply because pilots and ATC are too lazy to learn a basic level of English ? .. we have to learn a considerable amount of useless stuff before being granted our ATPLs ... this is at least highly relevant to safety.
As to the cost.. very few people in the world today have NO understanding of English... the internet / hollywood and TV have ensured that... buying a computer based language course and immersing oneself in english reading material would soon have anyone with half a brain ( the typical pilot ) dealing with the rudiments of the language and it wouldn't cost thousands as some here would have us believe.. it's our chosen profession and something as important as this issue is to safety should be taken seriously...
That's my contribution and I can already hear the response from some quarters repeating that famous comment from the CVR of a south american jet a few years back...
"Shadapa Gringo "
As to the cost.. very few people in the world today have NO understanding of English... the internet / hollywood and TV have ensured that... buying a computer based language course and immersing oneself in english reading material would soon have anyone with half a brain ( the typical pilot ) dealing with the rudiments of the language and it wouldn't cost thousands as some here would have us believe.. it's our chosen profession and something as important as this issue is to safety should be taken seriously...
That's my contribution and I can already hear the response from some quarters repeating that famous comment from the CVR of a south american jet a few years back...
"Shadapa Gringo "
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That's my contribution and I can already hear the response from some quarters repeating that famous comment from the CVR of a south american jet a few years back...
"Shadapa Gringo "
"Shadapa Gringo "
Requiring "latinos" to speak English is a politcally charged subject in the U.S. The government Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has sued the Salvation Army because a facility in Massachusetts required workers to speak fluent English:
http://alexander.senate.gov/index.cf...Article_id=204
Charges of racism are leveled by advocacy groups. Somehow this sort of thing doesn't apply to say, Norwegians.
Will this mean an end to "WHA' 'S YOUR DME SITIA?" bellowed from the back of a bathroom into a cheap microphone?
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English anyone?
I think that the trend of "I speak English" and "I think I speak English" in aviation made it far throughout all these years. The post from Deartignan was refreshing in a way that we really don't take it for granted untill it hits us right?
OK, one of my best friends is a guy who is working daily with airplanes overflowing south central EU over Slovenia. He is an senior ATC.
He told me a lot of stories who are related to speaking the one and only universal language that aviators use today-English!
According to him during his 20 years of service the worst English speaking experiences he had (and some of them were pretty close encounters meaning;the breach of the airways, descent rules, FL,etc...as well) was with;
French
Italian
Russian
Spanish airlines
I will not put out the names of the airlines, since I don't think it's fair to point a finger at anyone, but just so you know, there is a lot of people up there not doing their job the way It should be done.
It came from the real source and It is pretty sad that in 2007 at this day and age a pilot, who should be of an open, smart,educated and academic character ends up in someones airspace acting pretty much like a troll.
Any feedbacks?
OK, one of my best friends is a guy who is working daily with airplanes overflowing south central EU over Slovenia. He is an senior ATC.
He told me a lot of stories who are related to speaking the one and only universal language that aviators use today-English!
According to him during his 20 years of service the worst English speaking experiences he had (and some of them were pretty close encounters meaning;the breach of the airways, descent rules, FL,etc...as well) was with;
French
Italian
Russian
Spanish airlines
I will not put out the names of the airlines, since I don't think it's fair to point a finger at anyone, but just so you know, there is a lot of people up there not doing their job the way It should be done.
It came from the real source and It is pretty sad that in 2007 at this day and age a pilot, who should be of an open, smart,educated and academic character ends up in someones airspace acting pretty much like a troll.
Any feedbacks?