French DGAC award English pilot only level 5 English!
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On another thought, I do think the CAA are not doing UK FTOs many favours by making their students sit an exam. If the CAA followed the example of the French and Americans (both of whom give pilots automatically level 6 in the language of their training) UK FTOs would corner most of JAR training market. You would have flocks of JAR pilots training in the UK, seeing it as a guaranteed route to level 6 English.
It will be especially the case as more employers start following the example of BA and insist on level 6 as a pre-entry requirement.
It will be especially the case as more employers start following the example of BA and insist on level 6 as a pre-entry requirement.
Facts are boring, but......
The facts are boring, but there are rather a lot of "british" license holders who can't speak/comprehend English at level 6. (and I'm not being rude about the Celtic tribes). Too many posts here have made too many assumptions.
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OK, let's all take the DGAC English test. You can find an example of the whole test here:
http://www.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/h...200/index.html
Most of the test is easy-peasy, but the only bit that trips up native speakers is the "ecoute de bande". You have to score 18/20 to be considered "Level 6". If you make any error at all - eg miss out a preposition - even though it changes not at all the meaning of the phrase, then you lose a mark. So have a go yourself. No cheating - you are only allowed to listen to each recording once. Here's my answers below:
1. "Turn left heading one zero zero" (easy peasy)
2. "Climb flight level three three zero" (easy)
3. "Continue that radar heading" (easy)
4. Sqwauk (alt???) 2061 - not sure what he says before transponder code I can only imagine it is "alt" but it does not sound like it.
5. Negative due to???? - I have listened to this one many times and don't understand what he says.
6. "right on the inner"
7. "radar-heading" (easy)
8. "at your discretion" (easy)
9. "range is twenty" miles
10. kilo 0945 - all departing aircraft - 210 degrees at 17 knots - visibility 25 km - BKN 2000ft - 1000- 27R 27L - Turbulence may be experienced - report - acknowledge.
So on that test I would certainly have one, possibly two wrong, and I could easily have missed out a preposition somewhere in the ATIS readback. So I would only get level 5.
Let me know how you get on!!
http://www.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/h...200/index.html
Most of the test is easy-peasy, but the only bit that trips up native speakers is the "ecoute de bande". You have to score 18/20 to be considered "Level 6". If you make any error at all - eg miss out a preposition - even though it changes not at all the meaning of the phrase, then you lose a mark. So have a go yourself. No cheating - you are only allowed to listen to each recording once. Here's my answers below:
1. "Turn left heading one zero zero" (easy peasy)
2. "Climb flight level three three zero" (easy)
3. "Continue that radar heading" (easy)
4. Sqwauk (alt???) 2061 - not sure what he says before transponder code I can only imagine it is "alt" but it does not sound like it.
5. Negative due to???? - I have listened to this one many times and don't understand what he says.
6. "right on the inner"
7. "radar-heading" (easy)
8. "at your discretion" (easy)
9. "range is twenty" miles
10. kilo 0945 - all departing aircraft - 210 degrees at 17 knots - visibility 25 km - BKN 2000ft - 1000- 27R 27L - Turbulence may be experienced - report - acknowledge.
So on that test I would certainly have one, possibly two wrong, and I could easily have missed out a preposition somewhere in the ATIS readback. So I would only get level 5.
Let me know how you get on!!
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Sorry to be "Johnny come lately" and drift the thread but who has to take this test and when? I have a JAA ATPL and this is the first I have heard of it. Been away from the UK since September '07 though.
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Having worked for UK operators I could not miss the fact that a few of them could not write in english (write a report on the voyage report or techlog entries without making errors) nor where they able to do simple maths and this it is not the same nor the only pilot not being able to do simple calculus. RT wasn't the problem in most cases but as everyone you get it wrong sometimes. So I do understand english native people being upset but as everyone your are prone to errors and it is not the purpose of this exam to diminish anyone but to pick out the black cheep...? ( Oh yes, pardon my english please)
411A,
If you dig back into the FAA paperwork, it says they are giving everyone level 4 because you had to "read, speak and understand" English to get the certificate in the first place. So just as it was implied before that because you had a FAA certificate you "read, speak and understand" Engish now it's implied you are level 4 because you hold a FAA certificate that says you are "English Proficient."
http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviat.../info08012.pdf
But nothing about recurrent testing or upgrading your level.
If you dig back into the FAA paperwork, it says they are giving everyone level 4 because you had to "read, speak and understand" English to get the certificate in the first place. So just as it was implied before that because you had a FAA certificate you "read, speak and understand" Engish now it's implied you are level 4 because you hold a FAA certificate that says you are "English Proficient."
http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviat.../info08012.pdf
But nothing about recurrent testing or upgrading your level.
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SUd747 - there is nothing different in France. Plenty of the native French speakers I work with can scarcely spell in French (particularly with regard to accents), have a very scant knowledge of the correct verb-endings in many tenses, and have no idea how and when to use the subjunctive tense.
If you look up the ICAO guidelines for English proficiency which are here:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/43/ICAO%20LPRs.pdf
You will see that level 6 is very carefully and comprehensibly defined. Clearly somebody such as myself with English mother-tongue, no regional accent, no speach impediment, a high-level of general education (degrees from Cambridge and MIT), ATPLf, and fluent in several other languages, is going to meet the ICAO level 6 English requirements, as described in that document. There is simply no way that the existing DGAC FCL1.200/1.028 exam is apt to judge a level 6 English speaker. They really do need to do something about their exam, because otherwise a lot of French pilots are going to be very unfairly penalised on the job market.
If you look up the ICAO guidelines for English proficiency which are here:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/43/ICAO%20LPRs.pdf
You will see that level 6 is very carefully and comprehensibly defined. Clearly somebody such as myself with English mother-tongue, no regional accent, no speach impediment, a high-level of general education (degrees from Cambridge and MIT), ATPLf, and fluent in several other languages, is going to meet the ICAO level 6 English requirements, as described in that document. There is simply no way that the existing DGAC FCL1.200/1.028 exam is apt to judge a level 6 English speaker. They really do need to do something about their exam, because otherwise a lot of French pilots are going to be very unfairly penalised on the job market.
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Yep, I don't have an accent like them yankees on TV and at JFK. Or all them foreigners.
Why should I get a four?
Anyway, I can still fly around the world, even to the UK as far as I can tell...
Why should I get a four?
Anyway, I can still fly around the world, even to the UK as far as I can tell...
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Richatom
I am 100% behind you when you say some (+) french pilots should be afraid about their english proficieny check but likewise some english pilots to a lesser extend will not do as expected or fail. How should i put it? It is not because you are a doctor that you are never ill. Got my point?
I am 100% behind you when you say some (+) french pilots should be afraid about their english proficieny check but likewise some english pilots to a lesser extend will not do as expected or fail. How should i put it? It is not because you are a doctor that you are never ill. Got my point?
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The objective of testing should be to ascertain whether or not a pilot or other aviation professional can function in English within his working environment, and from what I've seen of the sample of the DGAC test, it precisely targets that goal.
There are two advantages to awarding or withholding points based on a precise transcription of audio excerpts: (1) it's a very highly relevant and valid way to see if a test subject really does understand what he is hearing; and (2) it eliminates any subjectivity on the part of the examiner—either the test subject gets all the words right, or he doesn't.
It's completely plausible that someone might be a native speaker of English but not a level 6, especially in the very narrow and specialized domain of aviation. If you have trouble understanding the audio portions, you need to work on understanding radio transmissions. Being a native speaker won't help you if you have trouble understanding what is said on the radio, and not being able to transcribe exactly what was said indicates that you didn't understand it all.
It looks like the DGAC has made an honest effort to be relevant and objective in testing, which is refreshing for a Latin country.
Most native speakers of English would not be able to obtain a perfect score on a rigorous and objective test of skill in the language. Almost none of them would be able to obtain a perfect score on a highly specialized test of English for a specific purpose, such as aviation. I teach and test adults every day in English, so I see this all the time. There's no shame in getting less than a perfect score, and from a safety standpoint, it's a lot better to have a test that furnishes some objective, realistic, and relevant evaluation of communication skills than it is to just assume that people are adequately competent in a language based only on some loosely related criterion, such as native language, nationality, old-boy network membership (prevalent in far too many countries), etc.
In any case, whether the result is a level 5 or level 6 doesn't really matter, since either is sufficient for the task. I hope this test is applied with equal rigor to native French speakers; if it is, maybe that will weed out those who cannot communicate (as a group, French people generally speak terrible English, and I wouldn't want the ones who speak terribly flying internationally as crew).
The day may come when the greatest number of people in aviation having trouble with English will be the native speakers, since they may be the only ones who are never adequately tested. This would leave a handful of native speakers with dangerously inadequate skills, whereas people with other native languages, rigorously tested, would not be able to get by with anything less than an adequate level.
There are two advantages to awarding or withholding points based on a precise transcription of audio excerpts: (1) it's a very highly relevant and valid way to see if a test subject really does understand what he is hearing; and (2) it eliminates any subjectivity on the part of the examiner—either the test subject gets all the words right, or he doesn't.
It's completely plausible that someone might be a native speaker of English but not a level 6, especially in the very narrow and specialized domain of aviation. If you have trouble understanding the audio portions, you need to work on understanding radio transmissions. Being a native speaker won't help you if you have trouble understanding what is said on the radio, and not being able to transcribe exactly what was said indicates that you didn't understand it all.
It looks like the DGAC has made an honest effort to be relevant and objective in testing, which is refreshing for a Latin country.
Most native speakers of English would not be able to obtain a perfect score on a rigorous and objective test of skill in the language. Almost none of them would be able to obtain a perfect score on a highly specialized test of English for a specific purpose, such as aviation. I teach and test adults every day in English, so I see this all the time. There's no shame in getting less than a perfect score, and from a safety standpoint, it's a lot better to have a test that furnishes some objective, realistic, and relevant evaluation of communication skills than it is to just assume that people are adequately competent in a language based only on some loosely related criterion, such as native language, nationality, old-boy network membership (prevalent in far too many countries), etc.
In any case, whether the result is a level 5 or level 6 doesn't really matter, since either is sufficient for the task. I hope this test is applied with equal rigor to native French speakers; if it is, maybe that will weed out those who cannot communicate (as a group, French people generally speak terrible English, and I wouldn't want the ones who speak terribly flying internationally as crew).
The day may come when the greatest number of people in aviation having trouble with English will be the native speakers, since they may be the only ones who are never adequately tested. This would leave a handful of native speakers with dangerously inadequate skills, whereas people with other native languages, rigorously tested, would not be able to get by with anything less than an adequate level.
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I would agree that perhaps a very small minority of British pilots would fail to obtain level 6 ICAO English, if the test is a true measure of pronunciation, structure, vocabulary, fluency, comprehension, and interaction, as defined by ICAO (for example, http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/43/ICAO%20LPRs.pdf).
However, the DGAC English test in no way tests those measures of English competency. The DGAC English consists of a series of out-of-context ATC recordings, and if you fail to understand one or two words then you are excluded from level 6. Completely ridiculous!
Despite what others are misleadingly stating, the ICAO language requirements have nothing to do with aeronautical knowledge - their requirements are entirely a measure of linguistic competence. There is no way that a non-pilot native English speaker could ever even get close to level 6 on the DGAC test (let alone the fact that most of the test is conducted in French!!).
The DGAC has some serious thinking to do on its FCL1.028 test otherwise it is going to seriously penalise DGAC pilots on the job market.
However, the DGAC English test in no way tests those measures of English competency. The DGAC English consists of a series of out-of-context ATC recordings, and if you fail to understand one or two words then you are excluded from level 6. Completely ridiculous!
Despite what others are misleadingly stating, the ICAO language requirements have nothing to do with aeronautical knowledge - their requirements are entirely a measure of linguistic competence. There is no way that a non-pilot native English speaker could ever even get close to level 6 on the DGAC test (let alone the fact that most of the test is conducted in French!!).
The DGAC has some serious thinking to do on its FCL1.028 test otherwise it is going to seriously penalise DGAC pilots on the job market.
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Kind of off topic, but on a lighter note...the late Miles Kington said that the French Navy had come up with a new inspirational motto for the seamen...
To the water! The hour has come!
Translated as
A l'eau!, C'est l'heure!
Matt.
To the water! The hour has come!
Translated as
A l'eau!, C'est l'heure!
Matt.
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Thank you - but bear in mind ICAO language requirements are nothing to do with aeronautical phraseology. I reckon a non-pilot would score next to nothing in that test!
You are confusing two separate issues, like a lot of other posters here. There are two exams of English proficiency - FCL1.200 which is a radiotelephony exam (same as UK FRTOL). Then there is FCL1.028 which is an English proficiency exam and which has nothing to do with aeronautical terminology (check yourself with the links ICAO links that I posted earlier, or here to the DGAC definition). A native English speaker who has no aviation knowledge whatsoever would normally level 6 on FCL1.028, but would fail the FCL1.200. The problem with the DGAC test is that it is trying to test two separate skills with one exam.
The CAA has a much better approach - r/t skills are tested in the FRTOL and English language skills are tested separately - and then only if it is obvious that the subject is not level 6.
It's completely plausible that someone might be a native speaker of English but not a level 6, especially in the very narrow and specialized domain of aviation
The CAA has a much better approach - r/t skills are tested in the FRTOL and English language skills are tested separately - and then only if it is obvious that the subject is not level 6.
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Negative speedrestriction!
I've listened to number 4 again and I agree it *might* be "alpha" and that is plausible - but phonetically it sounds like "ansa".
Well there we are then - already some of you not at level 6 selon la DGAC!
I just asked a fluent english speaking non-pilot to take that test - he scored three! He managed to scribble down parts of some of them, but most of them he just did not comprehend at all. Before you all jump - the ICAO language requirements assume no aeronautical knowledge - they are purely a measure of language proficiency.
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I just did the test and I couldn't understand number 5 at all - it is bizarre! "that's approved, negative due to ???". Whatever it is why does the controller approve something as negative?
I didn't get number four either - I guessed it might be "alpha" but wasn't sure.
I didn't have time to write out the ATIS instructions in full either - it would be easy to write it in shorthand, but I didn't have time to scribble out all the phrases in full. I just can't write long-hand fast enough.
So that's me failed then. Just as well I have a CAA FRTOL - just had a quick chat with an examiner and he signed me off level 6 immediately.
I didn't get number four either - I guessed it might be "alpha" but wasn't sure.
I didn't have time to write out the ATIS instructions in full either - it would be easy to write it in shorthand, but I didn't have time to scribble out all the phrases in full. I just can't write long-hand fast enough.
So that's me failed then. Just as well I have a CAA FRTOL - just had a quick chat with an examiner and he signed me off level 6 immediately.
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Guys, maybe it is off-topic..
I am an Italian national flying in Italy for an Italian Airline, but with a UK licence.
My licence is about to expire its 5 years validity, and I just discovered I have to pass this exam to have it reissued.
Do you know where I can take it on a short notice?
(As long as I have understood in Itlay it is not possible yet anywhere)
thanks...
I am an Italian national flying in Italy for an Italian Airline, but with a UK licence.
My licence is about to expire its 5 years validity, and I just discovered I have to pass this exam to have it reissued.
Do you know where I can take it on a short notice?
(As long as I have understood in Itlay it is not possible yet anywhere)
thanks...
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Ecoute de la bande
in No. 5 Man bilong Tower, him say:
Delta 138, that's approved, negative speed restriction
My assumption here is Delta 138 wanted to climb/descend without speed restriction.
I supose each bit is correct ICAO, but taken together, it dont make much sense, and neither do most of the other recordings..
Makes me wonder why they test for R/T proficiency in an overly anal-retentive way using dodgy praseology.
OORW
Delta 138, that's approved, negative speed restriction
My assumption here is Delta 138 wanted to climb/descend without speed restriction.
I supose each bit is correct ICAO, but taken together, it dont make much sense, and neither do most of the other recordings..
Makes me wonder why they test for R/T proficiency in an overly anal-retentive way using dodgy praseology.
OORW
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International Acceptance Of ICAO Levels
I have been watching this thread for some time and interested to see statements like "get your JAA licence in the UK and automatically get a level 6" - inferring that the French or other authorities would have to accept it. I don't think that this is quite correct since the French authorities make their own assessments, the UK have their own arrangements, etc. At the moment, thoughout the world, different authorities do not accept each others' ratings (unless specific arrangements exist to the contrary). Lots of private organisations (in the UK, US and Australia) have started to carry out their own tests but if these have not been accredited by specific authorities they are worthless.
I am still confused by the concept of Level 6 French (or Spanish, etc), since the ICAO scales were specifically designed to measure English!
By the way, the only difference between level 6 and level 4 is the frequency at which you have to be retested (you get level 6 for life).
I am still confused by the concept of Level 6 French (or Spanish, etc), since the ICAO scales were specifically designed to measure English!
By the way, the only difference between level 6 and level 4 is the frequency at which you have to be retested (you get level 6 for life).