Moscow near miss, Delta and Don Awia
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Choroni, sometimes
Posts: 1,974
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Moscow near miss, Delta and Don Awia
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Birmingham
Age: 32
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder how two planes with TCAS can come so close. 
Quote:I wonder how two planes with TCAS can come so close.
Easily - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashkir...es_Flight_2937
Today 14:35
Easily - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashkir...es_Flight_2937
Today 14:35
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Latvia
Age: 60
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Timbuktu
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This was posted on russian aviation forum, I will translate as best I can (mind you I am not an aviation pro or anything). posted presumably by traffic controller.
Also note that the other airline is Aeroflot-Don, not Don Avia (not that it matters much I guess).
---- quote ----
I was at the next channel, seen the whole thing. Controller gave Don 2100, Delta - 2400, warned both. Don replied that they took 2100, controller instructed them to maintain 2100, crew confirmed... and kept climbing to 2320m. Delta was turned away onto course 250. Don kept turning left to DEDUM (my note: probably local waypoint, not sure) while descending to 2100. There was no shouting, they just told Don sternly to descend and maintain 2100. TCAS did not activate, but crosses were flaming all the way (Note: I guess that means signs on the radar?). Most likely Don forgot to switch QFE 998(741) to 1013(760).
---- quote ----
And there you have it.
Also note that the other airline is Aeroflot-Don, not Don Avia (not that it matters much I guess).
---- quote ----
I was at the next channel, seen the whole thing. Controller gave Don 2100, Delta - 2400, warned both. Don replied that they took 2100, controller instructed them to maintain 2100, crew confirmed... and kept climbing to 2320m. Delta was turned away onto course 250. Don kept turning left to DEDUM (my note: probably local waypoint, not sure) while descending to 2100. There was no shouting, they just told Don sternly to descend and maintain 2100. TCAS did not activate, but crosses were flaming all the way (Note: I guess that means signs on the radar?). Most likely Don forgot to switch QFE 998(741) to 1013(760).
---- quote ----
And there you have it.
Pegase Driver
"Brak" input makes a lots of sense from an ATC point of view. QFE/QNH mixups a real problem in former Soviet Union . The " crosses" are most probably STCA warnings.
If the report is correct the Don was re-descending to 2100m so a/c were diverging again and could explain why perhaps TCAS did not activate, if indeed it did not activate. We do not know after all.
If the report is correct the Don was re-descending to 2100m so a/c were diverging again and could explain why perhaps TCAS did not activate, if indeed it did not activate. We do not know after all.
Only half a speed-brake
ATC W: Yes, however the part translated by brak suggests QFE-to 1013,25 isuue.
Initial climb is 900 m (QFE). At 200 m you self-contact 118,1. If the frequency is busy, you end up at 2960 ft AAL. If you are using ICAO NADP 1 or A, this is where it may get nasty.
Unlucky outcome scenario 1:
A/C will accelerate in level flight rather quickly, you need not to delay flap retraction, relevant check and cross cockpit communication apply and do consume certain amounts of time. Bug-up/Flap-up.
PNF receives ATC command to climb within the limits of the next sector, 1800 m, 2100 in this case. Find a value in feet, set on MCP and VERIFY and crosscheck - this is a fast killer. Listen to a well intended ATC traffic information, re-confirm climb clearance on R/T, but the aircraft still accelerates so hey, quick, quick, last step of flaps.
Busy, hee? And you just missed to reset altimeters at 1000 m. What were you doing at that time: speeding up, moving flaps from 5 to 1, takinkg "airline 007 traffic information - Delta 767 at 11 o'clock, left to right descending to 2400 metres, climb and maintain 2100 metres." (that alone 10 seconds!), readback, find 2100 m to ft conversion, set MCP, careful x-check.
Scenario 2: same story but 1013,2 set correctly yet a gremlin creeps with 2100 m to ft conversion and you pick an incorrect value of the table.
There for the grace of god go I.
FD (the un-real)
Initial climb is 900 m (QFE). At 200 m you self-contact 118,1. If the frequency is busy, you end up at 2960 ft AAL. If you are using ICAO NADP 1 or A, this is where it may get nasty.
Unlucky outcome scenario 1:
A/C will accelerate in level flight rather quickly, you need not to delay flap retraction, relevant check and cross cockpit communication apply and do consume certain amounts of time. Bug-up/Flap-up.
PNF receives ATC command to climb within the limits of the next sector, 1800 m, 2100 in this case. Find a value in feet, set on MCP and VERIFY and crosscheck - this is a fast killer. Listen to a well intended ATC traffic information, re-confirm climb clearance on R/T, but the aircraft still accelerates so hey, quick, quick, last step of flaps.
Busy, hee? And you just missed to reset altimeters at 1000 m. What were you doing at that time: speeding up, moving flaps from 5 to 1, takinkg "airline 007 traffic information - Delta 767 at 11 o'clock, left to right descending to 2400 metres, climb and maintain 2100 metres." (that alone 10 seconds!), readback, find 2100 m to ft conversion, set MCP, careful x-check.
Scenario 2: same story but 1013,2 set correctly yet a gremlin creeps with 2100 m to ft conversion and you pick an incorrect value of the table.
There for the grace of god go I.
FD (the un-real)
Pegase Driver
FD : totally agree with your both scenarios . A couple of years back IFALPA was sounding alarm bells for Moscow Departures because of so many frequency changes right after departure and a very low transition altitude.
A meeting was set up with local ATC , but with 2 separate organizations then ( airports and en-route) meant it got nowhere.
What is interesting in this incident is that it is not the " outsider " who got trapped, but a local airline, most probably with pilots well aware of the local situation.
Let's hope that the new ATC ANSP in Russia (the State ATM Corporation), will learn from this and change things, but, I have my doubts.
A meeting was set up with local ATC , but with 2 separate organizations then ( airports and en-route) meant it got nowhere.
What is interesting in this incident is that it is not the " outsider " who got trapped, but a local airline, most probably with pilots well aware of the local situation.
Let's hope that the new ATC ANSP in Russia (the State ATM Corporation), will learn from this and change things, but, I have my doubts.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Been in and out of Russia a lot recently Vnukovo in particular. always a nightmare.
An accident waiting to happen unfortunately. Departure clearance not given until ready to line up......if at all. Level off 2000 feet on QFE whilst cleaning up changing frequency, turning and converting new level given in metres to feet. Diction of most controllers absolutely apalling...........many sound drunk.......actualy they probably are.
arrivals are not much better with no vectoring to intercept and no DME.
Lets not even talk about the state of the runways/taxiways or the ground handling.............refuellers yeterday parked up next to us and both smoking!!!!!!!!!
An absolute zoo.
An accident waiting to happen unfortunately. Departure clearance not given until ready to line up......if at all. Level off 2000 feet on QFE whilst cleaning up changing frequency, turning and converting new level given in metres to feet. Diction of most controllers absolutely apalling...........many sound drunk.......actualy they probably are.
arrivals are not much better with no vectoring to intercept and no DME.
Lets not even talk about the state of the runways/taxiways or the ground handling.............refuellers yeterday parked up next to us and both smoking!!!!!!!!!
An absolute zoo.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Where the boss is
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An absolute nightmare...
a would say that the arrival matters much more than the departure, unless you have to deal with very very low temperature and pressure, where then the transition to "standard" will occur rather quickly and give you all the opportunities of the World to burst an altitude.
The other day upon arrival we were quite busy on the flight deck as controllers sound actually funny and it's a pain to convert altitude in meters QFE to feet QFE. Then you have some funny vectors bringing you like 90° to the ILS, no DME, one controller shouting you are too high (maybe 20 meters actually!!) and giving you lower, then the tower controller wondering why you are descending to 400m and telling you to stop descent (the you are screwed and pissed and scared...
).
Anyway, I would suggest you stay conservative to a maximum, even flying fully configured end of downwind at lets say 160 or 170 kts, giving you TIME, as it's what you will miss when on the closing heading you had to choose yourself without help from the controller...
same for dep, know by heart your 3 altitudes and that's it, much easier...
Good luck and good night as someone would say!
Cheers
a would say that the arrival matters much more than the departure, unless you have to deal with very very low temperature and pressure, where then the transition to "standard" will occur rather quickly and give you all the opportunities of the World to burst an altitude.The other day upon arrival we were quite busy on the flight deck as controllers sound actually funny
and it's a pain to convert altitude in meters QFE to feet QFE. Then you have some funny vectors bringing you like 90° to the ILS, no DME, one controller shouting you are too high (maybe 20 meters actually!!) and giving you lower, then the tower controller wondering why you are descending to 400m and telling you to stop descent (the you are screwed and pissed and scared...). Anyway, I would suggest you stay conservative to a maximum, even flying fully configured end of downwind at lets say 160 or 170 kts, giving you TIME, as it's what you will miss when on the closing heading you had to choose yourself without help from the controller...
same for dep, know by heart your 3 altitudes and that's it, much easier...
Good luck and good night as someone would say!
Cheers
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: any town as retired.
Posts: 2,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FD: is so correct
Have had so many "incidents" in Moscow, that we hav the policy of early descent, never possible, slow down, and config early.
Depart never use FLC, always flex power...(even allowing for runway state), and VS mode, set to 1000. always climb slow speed. pretend to be a IL76, not a LR60.
There is no other solution other than experience, have the time to convert all the numbers, and recheck the numbers.
The only up side is to log the freq/alt (mt-ft), and waypoints: FOR NEXT TIME. Always have, if available, the 3rd FMS scratch pad, for CONVERSIONS.
Consider always using QFE. as only on set of conversions needed. BUT remember FMS is calibrated for QNH.
Level 4 English is not viable, as they have limited vocabulary.
Never ask a non standard question.
Never rush in Moscow.
Enjoy.
glf
Depart never use FLC, always flex power...(even allowing for runway state), and VS mode, set to 1000. always climb slow speed. pretend to be a IL76, not a LR60.
There is no other solution other than experience, have the time to convert all the numbers, and recheck the numbers.
The only up side is to log the freq/alt (mt-ft), and waypoints: FOR NEXT TIME. Always have, if available, the 3rd FMS scratch pad, for CONVERSIONS.
Consider always using QFE. as only on set of conversions needed. BUT remember FMS is calibrated for QNH.
Level 4 English is not viable, as they have limited vocabulary.
Never ask a non standard question.
Never rush in Moscow.
Enjoy.
glf
Pegase Driver
Gulfstream aviator :
Russia ( like many other countries ) did not meet ICAO deadline for level 4 .
The irony of it is that, especially in Moscow, they have plenty of controllers that are level 4 .
The recently recruited young controllers are receiving good training and they are up to speed and speak good English. The problem comes from the older , soviet-trained , generation, that should have left , but for economical reasons cannot leave .
But the original errors that caused this incident are not the result of the communication skills of the local controllers , but rather of dangerous procedures.
Level 4 English is not viable, as they have limited vocabulary.
The irony of it is that, especially in Moscow, they have plenty of controllers that are level 4 .
The recently recruited young controllers are receiving good training and they are up to speed and speak good English. The problem comes from the older , soviet-trained , generation, that should have left , but for economical reasons cannot leave .
But the original errors that caused this incident are not the result of the communication skills of the local controllers , but rather of dangerous procedures.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: any town as retired.
Posts: 2,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATC Watcher
I know of one or two very good english speaking ATC in Moscow, and many more in Baku, or Kiev, etc.
But the problem is lack of comprehension of the problems that modern weestern aircraft have, which we actually see as a benefit. 6000ft/min climb, drop like a stone on arrival, if required, (the cabin being the limiting factor on IL's etc.).
Combine this with our requests for directs, etc, etc, and the limited vocabulary, becomes a problem, as our American friends will not resort to standard ICAO English.
As an aside, i have had the russian cabin crew, offer me a cup of tea before the flaps retracted, on departure, from UUWW. When told to sit down, she said " my passengers need service ".......just at that moment we had a TCAS event...she hit her head on the ceiling, I had a cup of tea, (with milk, no sugar) on my hea, and a co pilot laughing rather too much for his own good. She sat down very soon after, to recover. Leason learned.
China has resolved almost all of the enroute problems, and RVSM'ed its airspace, why can the Russians not do the same.
glf
But the problem is lack of comprehension of the problems that modern weestern aircraft have, which we actually see as a benefit. 6000ft/min climb, drop like a stone on arrival, if required, (the cabin being the limiting factor on IL's etc.).
Combine this with our requests for directs, etc, etc, and the limited vocabulary, becomes a problem, as our American friends will not resort to standard ICAO English.
As an aside, i have had the russian cabin crew, offer me a cup of tea before the flaps retracted, on departure, from UUWW. When told to sit down, she said " my passengers need service ".......just at that moment we had a TCAS event...she hit her head on the ceiling, I had a cup of tea, (with milk, no sugar) on my hea, and a co pilot laughing rather too much for his own good. She sat down very soon after, to recover. Leason learned.
China has resolved almost all of the enroute problems, and RVSM'ed its airspace, why can the Russians not do the same.
glf
Pegase Driver
Gulfstreamaviator :
Ah the Russian cabin crews ! I Remember the good old days where one of Aeroflot 's requirements for their Stewardesses was to actually remove physically the doors in case of Jamming , hence their size an appearances ! and the first thing they did , right after departure ( around flaps up sounds about right ) was to give 2 miniature bottles of Vodka per male passenger , regardless of time of day !
More seriously :
The main requirement to establish RVSM is Not ATC , it is Altitude accuracy and Altitude holding capabilities of the aircraft inside it . As long as there will be IL72,76,Tu134 and 154's , Yak 40/42s, etc..flying around Domestically in Russia, you will not see RVSM there..
Ah the Russian cabin crews ! I Remember the good old days where one of Aeroflot 's requirements for their Stewardesses was to actually remove physically the doors in case of Jamming , hence their size an appearances ! and the first thing they did , right after departure ( around flaps up sounds about right ) was to give 2 miniature bottles of Vodka per male passenger , regardless of time of day !
More seriously :
China RVSM'ed its airspace, why can the Russians not do the same.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Where the boss is
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
True true true...Gulfstreamaviator, what you said is really good and true, always fly in QFE!! Only one question as the FMS is calibrated for QNH altitudes, we (and the other crew) had a EGPWS warning upon turning base or final. Most probably it depends on the altitude at that time and configuration, but I'd say that the EGPWS doesn't realize that we fly QFE obviously and at a certain point thinks we are hitting the bottom level of low altitude. What do you do in these circumstances? Would be great to have you inputs.
Thank you!
Cheers and good luck for those flying over there!
Happy Lear60 F/O! ;-)
Thank you!
Cheers and good luck for those flying over there!
Happy Lear60 F/O! ;-)
Last edited by Lear Jockey; 23rd Apr 2008 at 11:16.
Only half a speed-brake
always fly in QFE!! Only one question as the FMS is calibrated for QNH altitudes, we (and the other crew) had a EGPWS warning upon turning base or final. Most probably it depends on the altitude at that time and configuration, but I'd say that the EGPWS doesn't realize that we fly QFE obviously
