Ryanair B738 off runway in Limoges (LFBL/France)

[Mr Good Cat]

And since IRS posn (not GPS) is not often very effin' accurate at the end of a sector, you have to ask the question who would dream up such a modification!

I stand to be corrected, but methinks this guy is tellin' porkies ;-)

[captplaystation]

If you have Autobrake 1, 2, 3 or Max selected, and you are aquaplaning, selecting Reverse thrust WILL sure as hell increase the deceleration.
You can select any deceleration level you like, but if the wheels are skidding along on top of the water you better start using CFM.
I'm with you on that one Firefly Bob, R/W is used at an alarming rate even in reverse idle,never mind forward idle, and too many of our guys do not do what Boeing recommends already ( hence why I give away shortish R/W landings only to bods I know and trust from previous experience)
Correct technique is. . . . . Mainwheel Touchdown - Unlock Reversers
Smoothly lower nose gear ( not Air Algerie method) whilst applying reverse thrust to 1st or 2nd ( or perhaps I should say 2nd or 3rd detent) as required to avoid messing up the blue and yellow with brown. . . . inside and outside the cockpit.
If you do any different, I don't want to be in the back the day you land in Blackpool/ Lubeck / Derry/ Altenburg / Bournemouth / Bristol or even Limoges I guess.

[Pilot Pete]

Just to echo the above comments, from the FCTM;

Immediate initiation of reverse thrust at main gear touchdown and full reverse thrust allow the autobrake system to reduce brake pressure to the minimum level.

Since the autobrake system senses deceleration and modulates brake pressure
accordingly, the proper application of reverse thrust results in reduced braking for a large portion of the landing roll. The importance of establishing the desired reverse thrust level as soon as possible after touchdown cannot be overemphasized. This minimizes brake temperatures and tire and brake wear and reduces stopping distance on very slippery runways.

Reverse Thrust Operation
After touchdown, with the thrust levers at idle, rapidly raise the reverse thrust levers up and aft to the interlock position, then to the number 2 reverse thrust detent. Conditions permitting, limit reverse thrust to the number 2 detent. The PM should monitor engine operating limits and call out any engine operational limits being approached or exceeded, any thrust reverser failure, or any other abnormalities.

Maintain reverse thrust as required, up to maximum, until the airspeed approaches 60 knots. At this point start reducing the reverse thrust so that the reverse thrust levers are moving down at a rate commensurate with the deceleration rate of the airplane. The thrust levers should be positioned to reverse idle by taxi speed, then to full down after the engines have decelerated to idle.

In my experience (not with the airline in question), mistakes in the above procedure are very common. These include delaying reverse application until all the wheels are on the ground, delaying deployment to detent 2 once reverse idle has been applied (if they have briefed this as their 'plan') and stowing the reversers completely and immediately upon hearing the 60kt call, or stowing them when they hear "I have control" during the landing roll.....

PP

[in my last airline]

You really must not wait to see how braking conditions are before you select reverse thrust because, the engines come out of approach idle 2 seconds after touchdown, then your spool up time to 2nd or 3rd detent takes forever. Get the reverse on asap and make sure you touchdown at ref or ref plus gust. This will definitely save you 100 metres of stopping distance. When i said 1 in 10 pilots at ryr touchdown fast, it would apply to many other operators too. It is such a shame that after pilots come out of training they change their landing technique.

[parsi]

Yestrday's Irish Times (Weekend Section) has an article by a passenger on the flight.

They contradict Rynairs statement that folk were calmly bussed to the terminal and mention that like everyone else they were left hanging around in the rain and then had to walk.

[captplaystation]

So, a "normal end" for a Ryanair flight then at least.

[hetfield]

Yeah,

"on schedule".

[wifeofawannabe]

as someone who works in broadcast news i can tell you this is something we are very much interested in. but we rely on tips from people inside the industry ie you. British Airways always generates more news because it is more prestigious than ryanair, however ryanair are in no way less newsworthy. and as for the person who suggested the news-hacks weren;'t on the ball because it was bank holiday, on the contrary this is the absolute time you can guarantee coverage.. go on, call your friendly newsdesk.. and in case anyone gets the wrong idea, i am a pilot, my husband is a pilot and i want aviation reported properly in the uk..

[RAT 5]

There is another braking technique; recommended when required. Apply reverse thrust as stated before. If the a/c is not slowing as required, in conjunction with A/B's, apply left & right feet to upper part of rudder pedals and push, while keeping reverse thrust at max. Reduce reverse thrust to idle by taxi speed, to stop engines exploding, but keep said pressure on brakes until a/c stops. Then you should get the combined effort of brakes & reverse thrust.
Let's keep it simple folks.

[A4]

Hear, hear RAT!

One of the findings of the QF "golf course" accident at Bangkok was a lack of awareness amoungst crews regarding retardation when experiencing aquaplaneing. QF had adopted a policy of Reverse idle, reduced flap and an intermediate autobrake setting to save money. Less engine wear,less fuel, less noise.... and it worked, they saved several million dollars in the 2-3 years before the accident.

However, this SOP of rev idle/autobrake became so ingrained that some pilots stated they had never done a landing at more than rev idle since they had been in the company. So does it become just a motor program? When you suddenly find yourself aquaplaneing, will you have the capacity to actually take full reverse........ because that is the ONLY thing that is going to slow you down.....and DON'T DELAY in selecting it.

Ironically, my son is watching "Aircrash Investigation" about the Air France A340 at Toronto as I type. A 17 second delay in selection of reverse on a saturated runway....... If it's WET, WET, WET be prepared to take FULL reverse!

Fly safe,

A4

[PPRuNe Radar]

Some more pics here of the Ryanair plough

http://www.francoflyers.org/2008/03/...s-airport.html

[janus627]

wow. will the crew have to clean it up themselve?

[Roy Bouchier]

I was very relieved to read Rat 5's post. I really thought that, reading all the erudite theories of how to stop an airplane on the runway, in the years since my retirement, the mechanics of the matter had changed.
I think not. I recall writing an ops manual wherein I stated that "On balance, the company would prefer that you make a firm arrival in preference to greasing it on and floating gracefully off the end of the runway."
Rat 5's technique would still work pretty well I fancy.

[captplaystation]

Seeing how wet the ground was, makes me think the speed at the end of the R/W may have been fairly substantial , as I imagine that goo was fairly effective as a retardation device. Kinda bad news we don't have shoes as part of our "uniform allowance". . . Ha Ha , although wellies might have been more appropriate.
I resisted the temptation when lining up behind it the other day to say " cleared to line up behind the company tractor", but only just.

[puddle-jumper2]

Rat 5

apply left & right feet to upper part of rudder pedals and push, while keeping reverse thrust at max. Reduce reverse thrust to idle by taxi speed, to stop engines exploding, but keep said pressure on brakes until a/c stops

A good simplistic view, but if I thought there was even a slim chance of 'going off the end' I would keep full reverse on right down to just before the end. There is a small chance of fod damage but I doubt if the engines would explode and the end result might be less embarrassing.

[slip and turn]

So what quantity of stones, sand and general crud thrown up from the nosewheel furrow went through the engines on this occasion?

And what unmeasured forces were applied via the undercarriage to the airframe?

And where are the engines and airframe now, please ... anyone?

[top jock]

Its back flying so look up and you may see it

[claremanlondon]

I also saw it on one of the remote stands at Stansted last Saturday (29/03/08)

[stator vane]

engines explode???

wow--i never knew they would do that if we didn't take them out of reverse??? amazing--

and i've been flying the 737 for a bit over 11,000 hours!!!!

i wonder what other loopholes are in my experience!!

[captplaystation]

You also didn't know that the engines run indefinitely without putting fuel in them, hence you are always carrying too much. . . . allegedly.
Edited to say, which time zone is PPRune in, I posted this @ 1733Z and it says 1033 Duh ?