Ryanair B738 off runway in Limoges (LFBL/France)
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My friendly thoughts to the Ryanair crew, and I hope they will face the following events with a professional attitude. I was well acquainted with Limoges, and the runway used (ILS approach, unavoidable with a low ceiling) is not flat, to say the least, with large puddles when the rain is strong, and at the end a very worrying declivity which if you overrun the end of that runway (to the south west) will certainly break the airplane definitely. Probably the crew knowing the airport chosed to veer into the grass with all passengers staying safe rather than to try and stop the plane in the very last centimeters of the overrun at the risk of going down the slope...Conjecture of course, but we have had such unusual bad weather with downpours every thirty minutes that it is quite possible that the runway was usable for the olympic swimming events.With some tailwind and gusts...the perfect trap.
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Hi Leo Hairy Cammel,
It's been so long I was getting worried for you.
First off all let's try not to jump to any conclusions, how much we like to, we can't blame FR for every incident that happens.
We should however note that over the past few weeks there have been a number of issues with FR incidents. This is someting that worries many people. (and should worry you as well)
There are several things to consider here:
1 FR has P***ed of so many people that the spotlight is on FR
2 FR has an unusual hing number of incidents
3 Any combination of the above.
Altough FR is commercially a good company, fact is that the working conditions are not as good as the commercial succes of the company.
IMHO we should let the investigation team do their work and react to that.
It's been so long I was getting worried for you.
First off all let's try not to jump to any conclusions, how much we like to, we can't blame FR for every incident that happens.
We should however note that over the past few weeks there have been a number of issues with FR incidents. This is someting that worries many people. (and should worry you as well)
There are several things to consider here:
1 FR has P***ed of so many people that the spotlight is on FR
2 FR has an unusual hing number of incidents
3 Any combination of the above.
Altough FR is commercially a good company, fact is that the working conditions are not as good as the commercial succes of the company.
IMHO we should let the investigation team do their work and react to that.
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FMGC: George, smoothness of TOs and landings is completely irrelevant.
Maybe, but it does say something about how the aircraft are trated and flown. As SLF I can honestly say that Ryanair seems to have the attitude of "get them up, get them down, as fast as possible." I've not had a good landing with Ryanair.
However, I've not had a good landing in a 737-800 ... (w/KLM)
I've spoken to Ryanair crew (both cc and pilots) and I get the impression that they're under a lot and evne too much pressure from management. Sometimes the relationship between management and crews reminds me so much of Korean's CRM style a few yeasr ago.
Pressure, inexperience and a general feer in the compnay is not a good combinations. We in my little commuter airline have had incidents and proactively dealt with them. Ryanair "seem" to be happy allowing lots of minor incidents with the occasional pilot sacking.
IN my day job, I was told that "as captain (eventually!) the buck stops with you, however so may do 200 peoples lives, the companys reputation, your families and yours."
fc101
E145 driver
Maybe, but it does say something about how the aircraft are trated and flown. As SLF I can honestly say that Ryanair seems to have the attitude of "get them up, get them down, as fast as possible." I've not had a good landing with Ryanair.
However, I've not had a good landing in a 737-800 ... (w/KLM)
I've spoken to Ryanair crew (both cc and pilots) and I get the impression that they're under a lot and evne too much pressure from management. Sometimes the relationship between management and crews reminds me so much of Korean's CRM style a few yeasr ago.
Pressure, inexperience and a general feer in the compnay is not a good combinations. We in my little commuter airline have had incidents and proactively dealt with them. Ryanair "seem" to be happy allowing lots of minor incidents with the occasional pilot sacking.
IN my day job, I was told that "as captain (eventually!) the buck stops with you, however so may do 200 peoples lives, the companys reputation, your families and yours."
fc101
E145 driver
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There is NO undue pressure in Ryanair to make schedule/land when you should not etc.Every A/C is fitted with monitoring equipment which relays to the an outside agency,of any exceedence.Noone will intentionally breaks a limit, for it is career suicide,as it is in any Airline.
If a Capt feels under undue pressure,he should remove himself,or be removed from the seat.
For those Legacy carriers who think they are better than everyone else...
With regard to the BA accident,why was the AP left in for just a mad snatch at the controls at the last minute?If the Pilots were sitting there watching it,why no 'brace,brace','Mayday',or Pax evacuation?A disgrace.All will out.
If a Capt feels under undue pressure,he should remove himself,or be removed from the seat.
For those Legacy carriers who think they are better than everyone else...
With regard to the BA accident,why was the AP left in for just a mad snatch at the controls at the last minute?If the Pilots were sitting there watching it,why no 'brace,brace','Mayday',or Pax evacuation?A disgrace.All will out.
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Can we please keep all posters calling themselves SLFs out of this discussion. You add nothing constructive. Read, but please don't post without any knowledge. A good landing is one that is in the touchdown zone, firm touchdown when needed. A pilots skill or an airlines management SHALL not and cannot be judged on the smoothness of his landings or takeoffs.
However, I agree 100% with flight international. It's time we start taking runway excursions seriously. They are not uncommom.
In the UK they don't even report braking action anymore. The crew is left completely on it's own. A notam stating the runway may be slippery when wet is nothing but ass covering by the authorities. All this leaves the pilots in a very tricky situation.
Time for some constructive action against runway excursions. ACTION FROM ALL PARTS INVOLVED.
However, I agree 100% with flight international. It's time we start taking runway excursions seriously. They are not uncommom.
In the UK they don't even report braking action anymore. The crew is left completely on it's own. A notam stating the runway may be slippery when wet is nothing but ass covering by the authorities. All this leaves the pilots in a very tricky situation.
Time for some constructive action against runway excursions. ACTION FROM ALL PARTS INVOLVED.
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George,
Please leave your crazy comments about bad take off's (???) and landings somewhere else,its the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard in my life,as proffesional pilots do you think we smack it into the rwy on purpose,for the craic? eg,i dont like this lot down the back,so lets not flare and bash it into the rwy.i dont think so,we all try and pull of a greaser,unless the situation dictates ie wet/contaminated rwy,where the Boeing FCOM recommends 'positive' contact,which means wheels on the ground and no messing around.
Again,we dont know all the facts in this case,it could have been pilot error,it could have been incorrectly reported wind,bad rwy surface or a combination.until the official report comes out,this website is Proffesional Pilots RumoUr NEtwork,where QUALIFIED proffesionals can exchange ideas,info and theories as to what happened,not a website where some SLF who had a dodgy landing once with FR can come up with the answer!
and George,fyi,
RWY = Runway,long bit of road we can land on
FLARE = the bit when we pull up just above the 'long road thing'(see above)
FCOM = instruction book for big aeroplane
WET/CONTAMINATED = means its a bit more slippy then when its dry
DRY = errr,thats obvious.
oh,and SLF = thats you george,Self Loading Freight.
Please leave your crazy comments about bad take off's (???) and landings somewhere else,its the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard in my life,as proffesional pilots do you think we smack it into the rwy on purpose,for the craic? eg,i dont like this lot down the back,so lets not flare and bash it into the rwy.i dont think so,we all try and pull of a greaser,unless the situation dictates ie wet/contaminated rwy,where the Boeing FCOM recommends 'positive' contact,which means wheels on the ground and no messing around.
Again,we dont know all the facts in this case,it could have been pilot error,it could have been incorrectly reported wind,bad rwy surface or a combination.until the official report comes out,this website is Proffesional Pilots RumoUr NEtwork,where QUALIFIED proffesionals can exchange ideas,info and theories as to what happened,not a website where some SLF who had a dodgy landing once with FR can come up with the answer!
and George,fyi,
RWY = Runway,long bit of road we can land on
FLARE = the bit when we pull up just above the 'long road thing'(see above)
FCOM = instruction book for big aeroplane
WET/CONTAMINATED = means its a bit more slippy then when its dry
DRY = errr,thats obvious.
oh,and SLF = thats you george,Self Loading Freight.
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Syspanis ria,Thank you for reading me, but the runway at Limoges, unless there has been a recent earthquake, has both thresholds at the same altitude (21 and 03) but when you land on the 21, you first go UP (from 1275 ft to 1300 ft) than DOWN (to 1273 ft) but after the end of the runway (to the south west) there is a steep gradient, probably acceptable due to one of our famous french "dérogations". Sorry if my first remark was not clear (struggling with your beautiful language)
Check by choosing Limoges at
http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv....set_aip_fr.htm
Check by choosing Limoges at
http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv....set_aip_fr.htm
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Skavsta? Ciampino? Cork? Knock? East Mids recently? Now Limoges....?!
Not knocking the crews - it's a hard job and FR's training seems pretty thorough, but the company culture is just primed for an accident. They've had enough close calls, must be the luck of the Irish. Hope this one makes O'Leary think twice.
Not knocking the crews - it's a hard job and FR's training seems pretty thorough, but the company culture is just primed for an accident. They've had enough close calls, must be the luck of the Irish. Hope this one makes O'Leary think twice.
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Can I just say that from my perspective of being a 737 Captain of some years......
That it takes quite some misjudgement and/or mishandling to run serviceable '73 off the far end of a 2440m LDA runway... even with a plucky tailwind on a wet surface.
Another Ryanair rushed approach perhaps ? It won't be long... they will kill someone soon. It won't be anyone of my family however.
That it takes quite some misjudgement and/or mishandling to run serviceable '73 off the far end of a 2440m LDA runway... even with a plucky tailwind on a wet surface.
Another Ryanair rushed approach perhaps ? It won't be long... they will kill someone soon. It won't be anyone of my family however.
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lgw warrior - what a nasty posting!
Just because this guy (George) has had a bad landing or two - so what! He's just had the misfortune and this bears absolutely no relevamce to this discussion or indeed the ability of Pilots at Ryanair. I have landed in some hideous conditions (most recently in the last couple of weeks) and have sat next to Captains who have pulled off some quite truely stunning landings in said conditions. It just shows the mentality of some SLF towards the Low Cost sector - Low Cost DOES NOT mean Low Standards.
Sure FR is not the most perfect employer in the world but then no-one is and we all have gripes that are aired here but the professionalism of the crews should not be bought into question-we are out there doing the very best job we can to the very best of our ability no matter who we work for every day we turn up for work.
I'm still a young Pilot both in terms of age (24) and hours (1300 or so on 737NG) and so still have a lot to learn but I am totally fed up to the back teeth with my professionalism and ability being bought into question just because I work for Ryanair by people who don't have the slightest clue of what is involved in getting them from A-B safely and assume that just because the odd landing is firm it must mean that the whole airline is staffed by muppets who should not be in possession of a Licence.
Rant over.......back to the discussion, I think it's obvious - I blame the Pilots!
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Just a note on the recent FR excursions - with this airline having so many more flights per day than a lot of airlines, many of these to smaller airports, it's statistically more likely that they have a couple more incidents, so this needs to be kept in mind when bashing them. I fly FR a lot and although I despise them for their greed when it comes to charging their passengers (then again aren't most airlines!), I have yet to have a bad experience, including hard landing, with them.
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lgw_warrior
Cor blimey must mean I've got to back to school! I like the definitions, I've had to use same in my 1st half of my 40+ yr history with certain 'bucket&spaders' specialists.
To all you negative posters:
DGCA will give us all the reasons, lets wait and no 'BS' the situation as you all seem to think is appropriate.
Nope I'm not part of FR, nor would I choose to use them, but let the folks answer to the DGCA.
To all you negative posters:
DGCA will give us all the reasons, lets wait and no 'BS' the situation as you all seem to think is appropriate.
Nope I'm not part of FR, nor would I choose to use them, but let the folks answer to the DGCA.
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Just my experience with Limoges.
I have land at LFBL 10s of times in different 737s incl 737-800. When that rwy is wet it is VERY slippery.
Next to investigation into the flight details, I do think there should be an thorough investigation into the runway at LFBL.
I would not be surprised if the slippery runway is THE mayor cause of this incident.
Good nobody got hurt!
I have land at LFBL 10s of times in different 737s incl 737-800. When that rwy is wet it is VERY slippery.
Next to investigation into the flight details, I do think there should be an thorough investigation into the runway at LFBL.
I would not be surprised if the slippery runway is THE mayor cause of this incident.
Good nobody got hurt!
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Originally Posted by in my last airline
Have trained in fr for many years. Here is my theory and speculation: Crew had inadequate knowledge of runway surface conditions, did not calculate last TWC as they were short finals. Pushed on, possibly with wrong vfly, boy I've seen that a million times, touched down fast due to incorrect technique, boy I've seen that a million times, fast and flat chopping the power at 10 ft. Throw in a little water on the runway, slow selection of reverse and voila! Whose to blame? Pilots probably. Sorry guys, but this one has been coming a long time.
Lack of elegance as a consequence of being pompous and puffed up with vanity
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Cloud bunny what a beautiful man you are,and that name so sweet like winegums. Im heard the plane never crashed,its all bollox
I'm not saying there wasn't an incident and that Ryanair is amazing and we are all infallible and all perfect, my gripe is with pointless, unconstructive posts based on no or very little knowledge.
Yeah, maybe the pilots screwed it up and if they did then we all learn from it - isn't that what should happen with all incidents/accidents?
Please can you clarify what you are getting at?
08KaQAjQ wrote:
Whilst I will never fly Ryanair, this incident seems to have very little to do with the airline, but everything to do with the runway friction characteristics.
The only siginificant fact regarding Ryanair is that, by using these minor airports whose runway friction characteristics are less well known than those of major airport runways, they are ipso facto more at risk from the unknown when operating into these minor airports in poor weather.
Just my experience with Limoges.
I have land at LFBL 10s of times in different 737s incl 737-800. When that rwy is wet it is VERY slippery.
I have land at LFBL 10s of times in different 737s incl 737-800. When that rwy is wet it is VERY slippery.
The only siginificant fact regarding Ryanair is that, by using these minor airports whose runway friction characteristics are less well known than those of major airport runways, they are ipso facto more at risk from the unknown when operating into these minor airports in poor weather.