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European armed guards on board

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European armed guards on board

Old 15th Mar 2008, 07:16
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Speaking from the perspective of an infrequent (commercial) flyer, I can only say this...


Since the 9/11 disaster, more people have been killed on US soil by TSA than have been killed by terrorists.

Good job or not, you decide.


Since Lockerbie, more people have been killed by miscommunication and poor maintenance than terrorists.

Good job or not, you decide.


Guns on planes? I'm on the fence - but I'd certainly be in favor of cooler attitudes and a lot more wrenches...


///
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Old 15th Mar 2008, 18:00
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Skutac #39 suggested that murder rates in the USA and UK were similar - here are some facts with souces:

In the UK (population c. 60.5m) there were 765 reported incidents of murder for 2005-6 (Home Office, undated) - a rate of about 1.1 per 100,000.
In the US (population c. 298.5m) there were an estimated 16,137 homicides in 2004 (FBI, 2006a) - a rate of about 5.4 per 100,000. Of these, 10,654 were carried out with guns (FBI, 2006b).
_________________________
Federal Bureau of Investigation (2006a). Bureau of Justice Statistics. Homicide trends in the U.S.. Long-term trends. Available from: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicid.../totalstab.htm.
Federal Bureau of Investigation (2006). Bureau of Justice Statistics. Homicide trends in the U.S.. Weapons used. Available from http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicid...weaponstab.htm
Home Office (undated). ‘Homicide’ - long-term national recorded crime trends. Available from: http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page40.asp.
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Old 21st Mar 2008, 20:42
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Flight 93

If faced with 9/11 type nuts, that's the whole new ball game and ' negotiation ' would not appear to be an option...

Though it always amazes me that folk are so dumb that when they are told " commit suicide and kill as many innocent others as possible, you'll go straight to heaven with bountiful virgins " - why doesn't someone say " OK smarta*se, if it's such a good idea why don't you do it ?!

There is also the sad fact that like it or not, more than the aircraft and people inside are at stake - one has to consider the potentially lot more victims if the terrorists are allowed reach their target.

I know other measures as well as secured flight deck doors are in place, but frankly I go for the armed ( whatever kit suits ) sky marshall/s - and Yes, I do think this is a good route for retired Special Forces ! ) and possibly the film ' Flight 93 ' should be made mandatory viewing - with a bit more time & luck the pax - who I understand included a pilot, albeit a PPL or similar - may well have got away with it at least to an extent.

'Immodium' would need to be standard issue before screening the film though !
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Old 21st Mar 2008, 21:06
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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I still firmly believe that the reason Gun Crime is so much more prevalent in the US is because everyone and their wife seems to deem it necessary to have a gun. Odd considering the British are no longer coming for anything other than a holiday.
Of course, after the UK banned handguns, their crime rate went --- up!

And when Australia spent hundreds of millions of dollars buying back semi-automatic firearms, their crime rate went --- up!.

Here in the states, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine have very liberal firearms laws. For example, concealed carry does not need any permit in Vermont. New Hampshire and Maine require permits for concealed carry, but those permits are shall issue for anyone who is not legally disqualified (e.g., has a criminal history).

Now Massachusetts, on the other hand has some of the most stringent gun control laws in the US. Guess which of these states has the highest crime rate? Massachusetts has a far higher rate of murder, attempted murder, and other violent crimes than the other states mentioned.

Gun control proponents use this argument all the time: UK has few guns and low crime, US has many guns and higher crime, therefore guns cause crime.

However, they seem to ignore many countries which are counter examples. For example, Switzerland has very liberal gun laws, many guns, and very little crime. Mexico has very, very strict gun laws and a huge murder rate. South Africa has very strict gun laws and a huge murder rate. The supposed correlation between gun laws and murder rate doesn't exist.

The reality is that the gun control laws don't work. They don't control the murder rate. There are many, many social issues that determine the murder rate. But it is a lot easier for a politician to pass a gun law and claim that they are "doing something" about the murder rate, than to actually solve the problem.
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Old 21st Mar 2008, 21:37
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Of course, after the UK banned handguns, their crime rate went --- up!
Do you have a reference for that?
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Old 21st Mar 2008, 22:25
  #46 (permalink)  
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From BBC, but still....

A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.
 
Old 21st Mar 2008, 23:22
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Ah yes, that report:

"The research, commissioned by the Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Shooting...."
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Old 21st Mar 2008, 23:33
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well, as a member of cabin crew, I'm not sure how helpful an armed guard would be on board. I know any terrorist or crazy nut can't access the flightdeck, so I'd rather not have bullets flying about the cabin where I am thank you very much. Yes, a bullet would be easier when dealing with some rude pax, but sorry, I can't understand how guns on board are helpful in such a confined tight space like a cabin. I'd rather have them put the money to having a nurse on every flight to deal with medical situations than a marshal.
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Old 22nd Mar 2008, 13:42
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As a passengers, I don´t really want a gun in the cabin on the plane I am travelling. I hope the airlines will tell their passengers, that a gun has been permitted while I am searched for micro knifes, pointless umbrellas, and other senseless items not to be taken on board.

If I am told that a cabin could suddenly become a combat zone, becuase our policies have to be shapped by other countries paranoias, I want to have the right to decide, if I am flying that airline or not.

If passengers decide to flee away from airlines, with these policies, I am sure they would think first it first. I want to choice and I want to know. It´s my right as passenger.
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Old 22nd Mar 2008, 14:24
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Where in the cabin could be deemed an acceptable place to discharge a firearm???
Would the marshalls be aware of where in the fuselage lie my control cables????
Or the consequences of an explosive decompression??????
Centre fuel tank resistance to puncture?????
As it stands at the moment, bring a firearm onto my aircraft and you will be left with no flight crew to fly you anywhere.
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Old 22nd Mar 2008, 19:15
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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" Where in the cabin could be deemed an acceptable place to discharge a firearm???"
Most likely into the sternum, hip bones or brain stem of those with intent on slaughtering you, your passengers and maybe thousands of innocents in a large gathering on the ground. Obviously, a discharge anywhere else in the cabin is not good.

" Would the marshalls be aware of where in the fuselage lie my control cables????"
They might be aware, then again this might be a factor if they are attacked by a group of terrorist midgets which would require aiming at the deck covering your control cables. How many shots would it take to sever them all? My guess is they don't carry enough ammo for that task.

"Or the consequences of an explosive decompression??????"
A fews holes aren't going to dump a cabin, especially those created by the typical handgun.

"Centre fuel tank resistance to puncture?????"
Another shot aimed at the floor? Sarcasm aside, any new fuels leaks are obviously a problem. Instant combustion is unlikely unless tracer shells are used.

" As it stands at the moment, bring a firearm onto my aircraft and you will be left with no flight crew to fly you anywhere. "
And what will be your rostering choice if a unfriendly group ends up on board armed with ceramic blades? Good luck.
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Old 22nd Mar 2008, 20:14
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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I may be stupid, but since the government or security experts or whoever appear to think that flight crew are not security vetted enough (through the very fact that they are put through the security and items being confiscated), I'd like to know how they can confidently say that armed guards are security vetted enough to ensure that they are not one of the 'bad ones'.
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Old 22nd Mar 2008, 23:25
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Since 2001, the only hijackings I'm aware of are when they've accessed the flight deck, which in Europe isn't possible if SOPs are followed. The Air Mauritanie hijacking in 2007, where an armed pax couldn't access the flightdeck, was resolved thanks to clever flight and cabin crew - good CRM i'd say.
The pilot spoke to the passengers and crew in French, warning them that upon landing he was going to brake hard and then accelerate, to throw the hijacker off balance and give the passengers and crew a chance to overpower him. On landing, the pilot did so, and the hijacker fell to the floor, dropping one of his pistols. Flight attendants poured boiling water from the coffee machine on him and ten passengers and members of the crew beat him until they considered him sufficiently subdued.
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Old 23rd Mar 2008, 00:04
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True FrequentSLf,but its not only if the 'good guy' goes bersek dear friend,also what if the 'good guy' gets owned by the terroz???

That would be a real true live working killing gun in the hands of the hijackers


Lets imagine another scenerio:

some screw-minded MR.Terro hijacks an aircraft,he is armed with guns,and 'luckily' on board there sit-in the rows a marshall,MrXXX!!!!
How will the passengers know who the good or bad guys are?They'll both be gun in hand during the tense period.
Mr.Terro might say he is infact the real marshall (showing a fake badge)and get the pax to help him!

Mr.XXX showing his federal badge might not help him too much in such a confusion.(or he might also have requested the help of other passengers from other rows too,leading to a more profound confusion and a two sided battle,each party growing bigger and bigger depending on the mouth to mouth information sharing)

I've been a bit far i know..........just to say that...in anycase,in any situation,there is far more greater possibility that guns may create more trouble than solutions.

Last edited by Captain_djaffar; 23rd Mar 2008 at 00:52.
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Old 23rd Mar 2008, 07:16
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Most likely into the sternum, hip bones or brain stem of those with intent on slaughtering you, your passengers and maybe thousands of innocents in a large gathering on the ground.
I wonder how many times we have been saved in such way None which I can recall.

They might be aware, then again this might be a factor if they are attacked by a group of terrorist midgets which would require aiming at the deck covering your control cables. How many shots would it take to sever them all? My guess is they don't carry enough ammo for that task
Hmmm... if you severe the right (or worng) cable one shoot might be sufficient IMHO there is a big chance of a bullet hitting a cable, considering the km of cables that are installed on an a/c.

Another shot aimed at the floor? Sarcasm aside, any new fuels leaks are obviously a problem. Instant combustion is unlikely unless tracer shells are used.
or a source of ignition...i.e. sparks

Keltic...well said

Captain_djaffar...
Correct!

Let me ask a simple question...who is checking and making sure that the person boarding the plane is a sky marshal and is not a terrorist preteding to be a sky marshal? What are the checks?
IMHO no matter how many checks or vetting...keeping the guns out the planes is the safest check!

Frequent SLF
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Old 24th Mar 2008, 19:25
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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OOPs....

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=319466



By DIANA RUGG / WCNC
E-mail Diana:

CHARLOTTE, N.C.-- A US Airways pilot’s gun accidentally discharged during a flight from Denver to Charlotte Saturday, according to as statement released by the airline. The statement said the discharge happened on Flight 1536, which left Denver at approximately 6:45am and arrived in Charlotte at approximately 11:51am. The Airbus A319 plane landed safely and none of the flight’s 124 passengers or five crew members was injured, according to the statement. It was a full flight. And airline spokeswoman said the plane has been taken out of service to make sure it is safe to return to flight. A Transportation Safety Administration spokeswoman reached by WCNC Sunday said the pilot is part of TSA’s Federal Flight Deck Officer (FFDO) program, which trains pilots to carry guns on flights. Andrea McCauley said the gun discharged in the cockpit, but she could not release how the gun was being transported at the time. She did not release the pilot’s name, but said he was authorized to carry the weapon and was last requalified in the FFDO program last November. A statement from TSA said the airplane was never in danger, and the TSA and the Federal Air Marshals Service are investigating the incident. WCNC reporter Diana Rugg is following up on this story. If you or someone you know were on that flight, please e-mail her at .
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Old 24th Mar 2008, 19:59
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It is quite simple really nowadays.
Anybody suspected of being upto no good is going to be lynched by the other passengers. Pretty damned quick.
It has happened several times in the last few years.

When was the last incident in Western Europe that involved a Hijacking or REAL terrorist incident?
I cannot remember, was it Richard Reid in Dec 01?

I would not want an armed sky marshall on my flight. How do you know that they havent lost the plot through marriage difficulties etc?

I am sure that a great deal of people on here have never seen the effect of a "short" on flesh etc. Due to the slower velocity the range is a lot shorter. A wet balnket will stop a browning 9mm at about 40m, however the slug at short range could in theory punch out a window. Then the problem becomes far worse. Old Airframe, High cycles, Aloha Airlines style decompression.

I would not work for a compay that insisted on armed guards aboard.
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Old 24th Mar 2008, 20:32
  #58 (permalink)  
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El Al, widely regarded as the world's most secure airline have sky marshals...and certainly as a passenger I would feel safer with them on board.
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Old 25th Mar 2008, 05:35
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Devil wondering????

How stupid can the pilot be? Was he toying with his gun inside the cockpit?

Maybe he should visit this webpage before he starts again and even attempting to touch a gun:

http://www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp

ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
When holding a gun, rest your finger on the trigger guard or along the side of the gun. Until you are actually ready to fire, do not touch the trigger.
ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety device if possible, and, if the gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and looking into the chamber(s) which should be clear of ammunition. If you do not know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun alone and get help from someone who does.
Know how to use the gun safely.
Before handling a gun, learn how it operates. Know its basic parts, how to safely open and close the action and remove any ammunition from the gun or magazine. Remember, a gun's mechanical safety device is never foolproof. Nothing can ever replace safe gun handling.
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Old 25th Mar 2008, 15:42
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Here's a much better idea: -

Take the FO's license from him/her, shred it, and make them think very closely about what the hell they were doing with a firearm on FINAL APPROACH - or even having it out its container in an unsafe state for god's sake before being allowed anywhere near the pointy end again.

It's incidents like this that clearly illustrate firearms in the flight deck are dangerous, and have no place in a locked container or shoulder holster of the Wyatt Earp wannabes of US aviation.
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