Discretion or routine extension to FTL's??
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HSL,
Well said. That is how it seems to work in practice, but usually it's not as bad as you've described it!
Strictly shouldn't you be jumping off in TFS and having 10 hours in a hotel room?
Well said. That is how it seems to work in practice, but usually it's not as bad as you've described it!
Strictly shouldn't you be jumping off in TFS and having 10 hours in a hotel room?
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The problem is this:
Stuck downroute with an air traffic delay or such like, your Capt. tells you that we will inevitably go into discretion. Flight deck and cabin crew alike just want to get home and cannot be ar**d with hotac.
What I am saying is that people are perfectly willing to work even when they are tired. Who would admit to their fatigue being a danger to aircraft safety? I wouldnt. So does that make me negligent?
Stuck downroute with an air traffic delay or such like, your Capt. tells you that we will inevitably go into discretion. Flight deck and cabin crew alike just want to get home and cannot be ar**d with hotac.
What I am saying is that people are perfectly willing to work even when they are tired. Who would admit to their fatigue being a danger to aircraft safety? I wouldnt. So does that make me negligent?
Not just a problem in the charter game chaps, our lot have lots of lines of work that start very early, involve four sectors in and out of busy hubs and only leave about 15 minutes grace before discretion is required to finish. A lot of crews now, including me, refuse to operator into discretion unless the company have left a decent margin. Often the response is to position another crew on your last sector to operate back whilst you sit down the back. Only 3 sectors now so legal, same time at work so you might as well keep quite and operate it yourself!.
By the way it IS quite legal to dispatch knowing you are going into discretion but again, unless the company has rostered a sensible margin in the first place I figure well why should I put myself out for them.
The CAA need to take a good look at this part of FTL's, they seem to be changing some of the rules regarding early starts and hotels etc. so perhaps they will tighten up some other loopholes while they are about it.
By the way it IS quite legal to dispatch knowing you are going into discretion but again, unless the company has rostered a sensible margin in the first place I figure well why should I put myself out for them.
The CAA need to take a good look at this part of FTL's, they seem to be changing some of the rules regarding early starts and hotels etc. so perhaps they will tighten up some other loopholes while they are about it.
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Sorry to but in but….why is it acceptable for a crew member to live 2 maybe 3 hours from their place of duty.
Get up - 0300
Report - 0600
Of duty - 1600
Home -1900 ………then do the same next day
This is I see as the “Norm” in most company’s charter and schedule. I personally think it makes a mockery of CAP371.
Could you imagine a HGV 1 fuel tanker driver living that far from his place of duty.
OK I`m ready for it give me grief………..
Get up - 0300
Report - 0600
Of duty - 1600
Home -1900 ………then do the same next day
This is I see as the “Norm” in most company’s charter and schedule. I personally think it makes a mockery of CAP371.
Could you imagine a HGV 1 fuel tanker driver living that far from his place of duty.
OK I`m ready for it give me grief………..
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Hugmonster & Sky 9, you seem to have missed the point.On a planned out and back duty you are not dispatching OUTBOUND into discretion.My point is that we all know and it seems (to me) that the expectation is that we will apply the discretion to dispatch down route.There's the rub!.We all know that unscheduled night stops are a nightmare and would rather just get home to the wife/baby/golf/bed etc.Unbelievable though it may seem to non charter/frieght dogs but we often report for a night Canaries later than 2200L.That gives you 10.25 hours for 2 sectors.Throw in some not unusual head winds and a few small delays and you are certainly into discretion ex GLA for example.I'm not defending this practice but it is what happens.Unless they have a full standby crew at base we will dispatch LEGALLY somewhere.The odds are then very high that the crew will want to get home and go the extra mile.
[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD ]
[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD ]
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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HSL
I do understand because I have been there, done that & got the T Shirt.
1 The max duty period after 2200 local is 10hr 15 min., not 10.25.
2 I have checked the duty periods to Tenerife that I operate to. They are reasonable but not fat, allow 1 hr pre-flight & 1 hr. turn-round, operated at M0.80.
GLA 11.15
NCL 10.45
MAN 10.30
BHX 10.20
STN 10.15
LGW 10.15
From the above it can be seen that it is possible to operate to TFS from only LGW and STN during the night (Also BRS & CWL) however there are no flights rostered after 2200 because only a small delay would take the flight into discretion. If you have a scheduled flight from GLA or NCL that departs after 2200z it is plainly illegal.
If my memory serves me correctly the SRG require a minimum percentage of a particular flight to operate within the maximum allowable duty period otherwise the schedule is deemed unreasonable.
At the end of the day it is up to you. If you are fit and not likely to suffer from fatigue, you may use your discretion, however as CAP371 Section A 1.3 states "if you have reason to believe that you are likely to suffer whilst flying from such fatigue as MAY endanger the safety of the aircraft or of its occupants"
you must not do it. and neither will you company ask you to do it.
As Chirp recently suggested if you are being put under pressure, ask for a fax to confirm their requirement for you to operate. He won't send it. Any threat is strictly verbal.
One suggestion. If you are delayed ex UK and it looks like you are going to exceed the maximum FTL tell your crewing department that you are unlikely to be able to use your discretion and could they please organise hotel accommodation in TFS.
I do understand because I have been there, done that & got the T Shirt.
1 The max duty period after 2200 local is 10hr 15 min., not 10.25.
2 I have checked the duty periods to Tenerife that I operate to. They are reasonable but not fat, allow 1 hr pre-flight & 1 hr. turn-round, operated at M0.80.
GLA 11.15
NCL 10.45
MAN 10.30
BHX 10.20
STN 10.15
LGW 10.15
From the above it can be seen that it is possible to operate to TFS from only LGW and STN during the night (Also BRS & CWL) however there are no flights rostered after 2200 because only a small delay would take the flight into discretion. If you have a scheduled flight from GLA or NCL that departs after 2200z it is plainly illegal.
If my memory serves me correctly the SRG require a minimum percentage of a particular flight to operate within the maximum allowable duty period otherwise the schedule is deemed unreasonable.
At the end of the day it is up to you. If you are fit and not likely to suffer from fatigue, you may use your discretion, however as CAP371 Section A 1.3 states "if you have reason to believe that you are likely to suffer whilst flying from such fatigue as MAY endanger the safety of the aircraft or of its occupants"
you must not do it. and neither will you company ask you to do it.
As Chirp recently suggested if you are being put under pressure, ask for a fax to confirm their requirement for you to operate. He won't send it. Any threat is strictly verbal.
One suggestion. If you are delayed ex UK and it looks like you are going to exceed the maximum FTL tell your crewing department that you are unlikely to be able to use your discretion and could they please organise hotel accommodation in TFS.
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HSL, further to sky9's excellent points, if you cannot legally complete the duty within allowable duty hours, the company must provide for that. If they are dispatching you KNOWING (or it being reasonably foreseeable) that you cannot complete without going into discretion, they are acting illegally. Therefore, in your scenario the company MUST either provide HotAc or a slip or relief crew.
There are no two ways about it.
There are no two ways about it.
sky9
10hr 15min is 10.25 hours.
Nearly Xmas
From what I can remember, CAP 371 does not allow for the distance a crewmember lives away from his base of operations, it is, however, incumbent upon that crewmember to report for duty sufficiently rested to be able to carry out his/her duty.
Like you, I cannot understand how someone who lives as far away as you use in your example can be sufficiently rested to do so. The regulations provide for the case where the airline hotacs a crew further away from the airport then x hours (sorry guys/gals can't remember off the top what it is), so surely it would be logical for them to place similar restrictions on the individual.
Having said that it would be interesting to see what effect the human rights bill would have on that!
Doc C.
10hr 15min is 10.25 hours.
Nearly Xmas
From what I can remember, CAP 371 does not allow for the distance a crewmember lives away from his base of operations, it is, however, incumbent upon that crewmember to report for duty sufficiently rested to be able to carry out his/her duty.
Like you, I cannot understand how someone who lives as far away as you use in your example can be sufficiently rested to do so. The regulations provide for the case where the airline hotacs a crew further away from the airport then x hours (sorry guys/gals can't remember off the top what it is), so surely it would be logical for them to place similar restrictions on the individual.
Having said that it would be interesting to see what effect the human rights bill would have on that!
Doc C.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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My copy of CAP371, all be it the 3rd Edition effective 1 May 1990 shows 10.15hrs as does my company FTL's.
Might it "just be" that a couple of companies have made a typo error or has 371 changed?
As far as living 3 hrs away; surely a pilot should consider his obligations to minimise fatigue. I would have thought that one hr. from your "place of rest" should be considered the maximum that an individual should consider.
Might it "just be" that a couple of companies have made a typo error or has 371 changed?
As far as living 3 hrs away; surely a pilot should consider his obligations to minimise fatigue. I would have thought that one hr. from your "place of rest" should be considered the maximum that an individual should consider.
Have to agree with Sky9, it is the crewmembers responsibility to live within a reasonable distance of their base. However why do the CAA allow "variations" of max fdp. Maximum FDP should be just that. Why are the CAA allowing airlines extra FDP to suit their commercial needs. Maybe it should be compulsory for all flight ops inspectors to only operate those flights that require a "variation". Then the rules may change.
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To me, going into discretion to get home is preferable than to have another crew repo down route to fly the sector home while you ride in the back. As is going into discretion to avoid an overnight (somtimes).
Be careful what you ask for as you just might get it: Twice the pairings for the same amount of duty time. I'm sure nobody wants to DOUBLE their number of monthly duty days just to prove a rather minor point.
Maybe that's just me.
Be careful what you ask for as you just might get it: Twice the pairings for the same amount of duty time. I'm sure nobody wants to DOUBLE their number of monthly duty days just to prove a rather minor point.
Maybe that's just me.
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DockJock, how far would you go into discretion to get home? How tired would you have to be to decide to stay put? How do you judge how exhausted a member of your crew is? How do you judge whether they are capable of doing their job? How competent would you be to handle a major aircraft malfunction after x hours on duty (insert the number you first thought of)?
The point here is that everybody is different. To have regulations, you have to put the power to choose to exercise discretion in the individual crew member's hands. Companies are, effectively, removing that decision, and telling crews they WILL come back into discretion.
I accept that you may well be compos mentis enough to continue, and most of us would probably prefer to get home. However, that is your decision, based on circumstances at the time. It is not the company's decision to make. That is where the danger lies.
The point here is that everybody is different. To have regulations, you have to put the power to choose to exercise discretion in the individual crew member's hands. Companies are, effectively, removing that decision, and telling crews they WILL come back into discretion.
I accept that you may well be compos mentis enough to continue, and most of us would probably prefer to get home. However, that is your decision, based on circumstances at the time. It is not the company's decision to make. That is where the danger lies.
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Can we all stop quoting CAP371and agree that we've all read and understood it(and that 10.25 hrs=10hrs 15min).
Back in the real world and especially in the frozen north with its longer flight times crews routinely exercise discretion to cover run of the mill charter delays.I will bet folding money that a study of stats showing the number of crews hotaced or positioned down route to cover sub 3 hour delays versus discretion reports filed for the same would bare this out.I applaud sky9 and huggy if in reality they dig in there heels at base and say we wont do it but most do for all the reasons already stated(Plus dare I say it "good will" and the fact that the 200 punters down the back really want to go on holiday).At the risk of repeating myself you can always dispatch legally for one sector and we all know that most will then try to get home(Yes, yes having considered fatigue etc blah blah)
Back in the real world and especially in the frozen north with its longer flight times crews routinely exercise discretion to cover run of the mill charter delays.I will bet folding money that a study of stats showing the number of crews hotaced or positioned down route to cover sub 3 hour delays versus discretion reports filed for the same would bare this out.I applaud sky9 and huggy if in reality they dig in there heels at base and say we wont do it but most do for all the reasons already stated(Plus dare I say it "good will" and the fact that the 200 punters down the back really want to go on holiday).At the risk of repeating myself you can always dispatch legally for one sector and we all know that most will then try to get home(Yes, yes having considered fatigue etc blah blah)
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I still like the discretion bit a lot more than the way we have to deal with long duties.
In the Netherlands max duty single crew could be 16hrs for single crew and 19hrs for heavy crew (1capt & 2 co-pilots of which 1 is relief capt above 20000ft). This is the law and there are obviously planning margins. But if you fly e.g. AMS-LXR-HRG-AMS and you run in trouble you will be approaching the max duty limit of 19 hours. The dutch law works reverse with yours, it allows you to fly max duty, but the Capt can reduce the duty time by applying a reduction in max hours for filing agreviated circumstances. This could be the case with tec delay, pax bag identification etc.
Be sure if you do this as a Capt, and use the agreviated circumstances to reduce your duty...... Your in for T&B with the chief.
So how will the new European W&R regulations be????
Safety is no accident.....
In the Netherlands max duty single crew could be 16hrs for single crew and 19hrs for heavy crew (1capt & 2 co-pilots of which 1 is relief capt above 20000ft). This is the law and there are obviously planning margins. But if you fly e.g. AMS-LXR-HRG-AMS and you run in trouble you will be approaching the max duty limit of 19 hours. The dutch law works reverse with yours, it allows you to fly max duty, but the Capt can reduce the duty time by applying a reduction in max hours for filing agreviated circumstances. This could be the case with tec delay, pax bag identification etc.
Be sure if you do this as a Capt, and use the agreviated circumstances to reduce your duty...... Your in for T&B with the chief.
So how will the new European W&R regulations be????
Safety is no accident.....
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Possibly a "silly addition", BUT
I once knew a [Dan Air] pilot who was latterly based at MAN, but STILL lived at his domicile at NCL. He drove his own car!
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
I once knew a [Dan Air] pilot who was latterly based at MAN, but STILL lived at his domicile at NCL. He drove his own car!
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
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Some years ago we were on chocks half way round the worls 2 hours & 57 minutes into discretion. We came very close to a go-round due weather and a 40 minute diversion.
Never, never again. It was quite the most unpleasant experience sitting up there in a stronger than forecast headwind with the possibility of landing illegally.
The company can sack you but the CAA can remove your licence. Stark choice but one that you must keep in your mind all the time.
Never, never again. It was quite the most unpleasant experience sitting up there in a stronger than forecast headwind with the possibility of landing illegally.
The company can sack you but the CAA can remove your licence. Stark choice but one that you must keep in your mind all the time.