Apnea, early starts blamed in Hawaii pilots' nap
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: edge of reality
Posts: 792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
and just one further thought...
If a flightcrew member was found to be unable to concentrate and was desperately trying (and failing) to stay awake and this condition was discovered as being due to alcohol abuse..
1) roughly how much alcohol would have to be consumed to create that condition in an average weight man and
2) what penalties would he be likely to suffer having been convicted in court of presenting himself in the cockpit in that state ?
If a flightcrew member was found to be unable to concentrate and was desperately trying (and failing) to stay awake and this condition was discovered as being due to alcohol abuse..
1) roughly how much alcohol would have to be consumed to create that condition in an average weight man and
2) what penalties would he be likely to suffer having been convicted in court of presenting himself in the cockpit in that state ?
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Caythorpe Lincolnshire
Age: 83
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Asleep/Fatigue
Far East airline during Puasa/Ramadan/Muslim Fast.
The local first officer observing the fast, was asleep before top of climb out of Singapore, and remained that way until I woke him up in the descent into Dubai!
So it is not just poor rostering to blame, consideration must be given to local customs and beliefs.
The local first officer observing the fast, was asleep before top of climb out of Singapore, and remained that way until I woke him up in the descent into Dubai!
So it is not just poor rostering to blame, consideration must be given to local customs and beliefs.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Over here
Age: 63
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IAG podcast part 2
IAG, the site that did the first pilot fatigue podcast has now put out a part 2.
http://iagblog.podomatic.com/entry/e...13_10_30-07_00
This one has a "sleep expert" who explains what can be done - and an "unknown analyst" who say the FAA does not have any rules about pilots and fatigue.
Imagine that - rules and drinking and drugs which have the the same impact on decision making as fatigue. But nothing on fatigue.
I suppose pilots simply don't get fatigued - right?
http://iagblog.podomatic.com/entry/e...13_10_30-07_00
This one has a "sleep expert" who explains what can be done - and an "unknown analyst" who say the FAA does not have any rules about pilots and fatigue.
Imagine that - rules and drinking and drugs which have the the same impact on decision making as fatigue. But nothing on fatigue.
I suppose pilots simply don't get fatigued - right?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sleep well
I havenīt read the entire tread, but I know that the industry are pushing our limits in their neverending quest for money.
If I work five days i a row, starting with a wake up call at 4:00 AM, I am pretty useless the last two days, and I am not alone according to my fellow pilots. Also after a long day with only two legs, but at almost 6 hours each, I am too close to my limit during the last few hours, especially during the winter when we run into low braking action and/or snow clearance at our final destination. It is insane, but the money boys donīt give a ****.
In the beginning of my career I flew commuter airplanes in the US. I flew up to 15 legs per day, and boy did we sleep. It was also insane, and luck is what saved us from major trouble. The company didnīt care. Airlines tends to see the governing rules as a limit, not a guideline where common sense should be applied when the schedules are made.
Now with the age 60 thing happening, it is not about to get better. Many 60 year old pilots are fine, but there are certainly those who should retire, in stead of sitting trough long legs drooling on their tie for hours. Donīt they sometime wonder why their ties are so wet after work?
In the end it is up to us and our unions. We are the idiots who will do anything just to fly.....like little boys. We run off and buy typeratings, pay for training, accept pay cuts, worse conditions, just to get to fly. Hell, I have even heard of idiots willing to pay for their own uniforms........idiots!
If I work five days i a row, starting with a wake up call at 4:00 AM, I am pretty useless the last two days, and I am not alone according to my fellow pilots. Also after a long day with only two legs, but at almost 6 hours each, I am too close to my limit during the last few hours, especially during the winter when we run into low braking action and/or snow clearance at our final destination. It is insane, but the money boys donīt give a ****.
In the beginning of my career I flew commuter airplanes in the US. I flew up to 15 legs per day, and boy did we sleep. It was also insane, and luck is what saved us from major trouble. The company didnīt care. Airlines tends to see the governing rules as a limit, not a guideline where common sense should be applied when the schedules are made.
Now with the age 60 thing happening, it is not about to get better. Many 60 year old pilots are fine, but there are certainly those who should retire, in stead of sitting trough long legs drooling on their tie for hours. Donīt they sometime wonder why their ties are so wet after work?
In the end it is up to us and our unions. We are the idiots who will do anything just to fly.....like little boys. We run off and buy typeratings, pay for training, accept pay cuts, worse conditions, just to get to fly. Hell, I have even heard of idiots willing to pay for their own uniforms........idiots!
Everything is under control.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 435
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airline fires 2 pilots who overshot Hawaii runway
The subject of the first post on this thread . . .
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...1c0CgD908F2RG0
Two pilots for Hawaii's Go airlines who overshot a runway by 15 miles while trying to land on the state's Big Island have been fired.
Mesa Air Group confirmed Thursday that it fired the pilots but won't identify them. Go is an inter-island carrier run by Mesa.
Investigators say they were looking into whether the pilots had fallen asleep when the plane carrying 40 passengers drifted off course during a Feb. 13 flight from Honolulu to Hilo. Air traffic controllers were unable to contact the cockpit for 25 minutes.
The plane landed safely in Hilo.
Mesa Air Group confirmed Thursday that it fired the pilots but won't identify them. Go is an inter-island carrier run by Mesa.
Investigators say they were looking into whether the pilots had fallen asleep when the plane carrying 40 passengers drifted off course during a Feb. 13 flight from Honolulu to Hilo. Air traffic controllers were unable to contact the cockpit for 25 minutes.
The plane landed safely in Hilo.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...1c0CgD908F2RG0
Last edited by Eboy; 24th Apr 2008 at 23:25. Reason: fix link
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Essex, UK
Age: 57
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Report - Go! flight deck crew were asleep
Felt the report linked to would be of interest, and generate some debate...
http://kgmb9.com/main/content/view/5870/169/
http://kgmb9.com/main/content/view/5870/169/
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sonoma, CA, USA
Age: 79
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the KMBG Link
"Sources say the captain, a 16 year veteran, also confessed he has fallen asleep in mid-air before."
I've been wondering about this for over 46 years. Where is "mid-air"?
I've been wondering about this for over 46 years. Where is "mid-air"?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A lot of things happen "mid-air". Crews fall asleep, airplanes run into each other.
I just want to know where it is so I can avoid it.
I just want to know where it is so I can avoid it.
Where is 'mid-air'?
Anywhere between the hard lumpy stuff, and where it runs out altogether.
If the two converge - that is known as "The other coffin corner"
As this cockpit duo no doubt expressed to each other afterwards:
Isn't it rich?
Are we a pair?
Me here at last on the ground,
You in mid-air.
Send in the clowns.
(Stephen Sondheim/Joni Mitchel et al..)
If the two converge - that is known as "The other coffin corner"
As this cockpit duo no doubt expressed to each other afterwards:
Isn't it rich?
Are we a pair?
Me here at last on the ground,
You in mid-air.
Send in the clowns.
(Stephen Sondheim/Joni Mitchel et al..)
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Basic Flying Rules
1. Try to stay in the middle of the air.
2. Do not go near the edges of it.
3. The edges of the air can be recognized by the appearance of ground, buildings, sea, trees and interstellar space. It is much more difficult to fly there.
1. Try to stay in the middle of the air.
2. Do not go near the edges of it.
3. The edges of the air can be recognized by the appearance of ground, buildings, sea, trees and interstellar space. It is much more difficult to fly there.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Europe
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shift lag-LOW COST
Most of the fatigue research has been on long haul not so much on short haul.
I feel there is a fatique associated with many sectors doing 4 sectors a day
I call it multi-sector fatigue, as said your fifth morning getting up at 4am having your ciracadian rythms disprupted adds up.
I spend a good part of my first day off resting
Changing from working nights and flying
Disrupting your bodies circadian rythms and SCN causes your body damage, even disgestive problems
I feel there is a fatique associated with many sectors doing 4 sectors a day
I call it multi-sector fatigue, as said your fifth morning getting up at 4am having your ciracadian rythms disprupted adds up.
I spend a good part of my first day off resting
Changing from working nights and flying
Disrupting your bodies circadian rythms and SCN causes your body damage, even disgestive problems
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
September 23, 2008
FAA suspends sleeping Hawaiian airline pilots
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 11:26 p.m. ET
HONOLULU (AP) -- Two pilots for Hawaii's Go airlines who slept through their flight's landing procedure were suspended for the careless and reckless operation of an aircraft, the Federal Aviation Administration said Tuesday.
The pilots, who have been fired by Go, completed their suspensions on Sept. 9, FAA spokesman Ian Gregor said. He did not know whether they are flying again with a different carrier.
Captain Scott Oltman, 54, who was also cited for failing to maintain radio communications, had his license suspended for 60 days. First Officer Dillon Shepley, 24, was suspended for 45 days.
Gregor said no action was taken against Go because it did nothing wrong and provided the pilots with a 15-hour break before their shift, nearly double what the FAA requires.
The National Transportation Safety Board had determined the two pilots fell asleep on the Feb. 13 flight from Honolulu to Hilo.
Oltman was later diagnosed with a severe obstructive sleep apnea. It causes people to stop breathing repeatedly, preventing a restful night of sleep.
However, it was still unclear how both pilots fell asleep on the brief midmorning flight, which was carrying 40 passengers.
No problems were found after examining the aircraft's pressurization system and carbon monoxide levels.
The pilots failed to respond to nearly a dozen calls from air traffic controllers over a span of 17 minutes...
FAA suspends sleeping Hawaiian airline pilots
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 11:26 p.m. ET
HONOLULU (AP) -- Two pilots for Hawaii's Go airlines who slept through their flight's landing procedure were suspended for the careless and reckless operation of an aircraft, the Federal Aviation Administration said Tuesday.
The pilots, who have been fired by Go, completed their suspensions on Sept. 9, FAA spokesman Ian Gregor said. He did not know whether they are flying again with a different carrier.
Captain Scott Oltman, 54, who was also cited for failing to maintain radio communications, had his license suspended for 60 days. First Officer Dillon Shepley, 24, was suspended for 45 days.
Gregor said no action was taken against Go because it did nothing wrong and provided the pilots with a 15-hour break before their shift, nearly double what the FAA requires.
The National Transportation Safety Board had determined the two pilots fell asleep on the Feb. 13 flight from Honolulu to Hilo.
Oltman was later diagnosed with a severe obstructive sleep apnea. It causes people to stop breathing repeatedly, preventing a restful night of sleep.
However, it was still unclear how both pilots fell asleep on the brief midmorning flight, which was carrying 40 passengers.
No problems were found after examining the aircraft's pressurization system and carbon monoxide levels.
The pilots failed to respond to nearly a dozen calls from air traffic controllers over a span of 17 minutes...
Psychophysiological entity
Pilot fatigue has been a growing concern among safety advocates.
up, Orville."Nothing has changed. Nothing...since we hid our girl behind the radio rack of a DC3. She had slithered down all the jagged bits because it was the third day we had done 16 hours, and she worked the hardest. 40 odd, people on that aircraft, somewhere north of Jersey.
I used to unplug my captain's headset and give the Shhhhh signal to our girls, so that he could get a decent kip. "Don't you land it...don't you land it" He would keep saying, as he got his pillow out of his flight bag.
As a young f/o I loved it, but I couldn't extrapolate this to my life a few years later. In recent years, I stepped onto a colleague's aircraft in the middle of the night. There were so many corrections in the tech log that the page was soggy with biro. 'I'm soooooooo tired.' he kept saying.
The solution isn't another
committee, it's a total re-think to how we operate aircraft making use of human beings. Man and machine...nope, second thoughts, never going to work. Lateral thinking needed here. I had more protection in my Essex home from human fatigue / failure, than the average passenger carrying jet transport. Let's start making the flight-deck monitor the crews every bit as much as the engines...if not more so.