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JAL plane attempts takeoff without permission in Hokkaido

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JAL plane attempts takeoff without permission in Hokkaido

Old 17th Feb 2008, 02:55
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JAL plane attempts takeoff without permission in Hokkaido

(taken from JapanToday)

Sunday, February 17, 2008 at 06:43 EST
TOKYO — A Japan Airlines jet carrying 446 passengers and crew members started heading down a runway without permission while another JAL aircraft was still running after landing at New Chitose Airport on Saturday morning but stopped on an order by an air traffic controller, airport and airline officials said.

According to Japan Airlines, the pilot in command of JAL flight 502, a Boeing 747 passenger jet bound for Tokyo's Haneda airport, misheard an instruction by an air traffic controller in English, or the controller may have used terminology that was misunderstood. The controller told the aircraft that it was expected to be cleared for takeoff soon but the pilot apparently misunderstood it as an order for an immediate takeoff, the airline said.
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Old 17th Feb 2008, 06:26
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cleared for takeoff soon
Very very bad terminology if those were the words used.
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Old 17th Feb 2008, 07:25
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Japanese ATC has some of the worst English arround. Center ATC is not bad, but local controllers, even at RJAA are some of the worst! Even the Chinese ATC speaks better English than they do. God forbid you have an emergency and need ATCs help. You might as well shutt the radio off
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Old 17th Feb 2008, 07:41
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Wrong phraseology, wrong interpretation, possibly from the intonation, arguably it might never have happened had they communicated comfortably in their mother tongue
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Old 17th Feb 2008, 10:54
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Sobelena urrm I like your thinking but we speak English for one good reason. Helps all pilots build a picture of what is happening around them. If people revert to "their mother tongue" more problems could result.

Learn english, problem solved.
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Old 17th Feb 2008, 11:19
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Learn english, problem solved
Unfortunately not in this case.. if the above interpretation of events is correct the problem was in using the phrase 'take-off' in the instruction... Following the Teneriffe disaster it was decided that the words "take-off" should be used first by the controller (not air-crew) and ONLY when giving a clearance for the a/c to take-off.. The Americans seem to have chosen to ignore that good advice and from my experience around the world so have a number of others...

What does it take to get a basic bit of good sense into the head of some people ?
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Old 17th Feb 2008, 12:04
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Originally Posted by "Sqwak7700
Japanese ATC has some of the worst English arround.
Perhaps that's to match some of the worst English spellers!
Having been based here for 9 years, I disagree totally.
And having flown into Chinese airspace regularly, I think you're probably a Chinaman if you really believe that "Even the Chinese ATC speaks better English than they do".

What is, in my opinion a very worthwhile suggestion worth comsdieration for Safety's sake is that of Sobelena's, "it might never have happened had they communicated comfortably in their mother tongue."
For the sake of Safety, why NOT transmit important clearances in BOTH languages (English, and the native tongue) when aircraft are operating in a non-native English-speaking environment.

It's only going to cost airwaves - not lives.

I have also expressed another idea toward trying to resolve this problem on my own forum - PIREP - and I hope Danny sees fit to allow the link, for the sake of aviation Safety.
http://**********/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6748
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Old 17th Feb 2008, 12:19
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Quote: “.....arguably it might never have happened had they communicated comfortably in their mother tongue”
Quote: “Learn english, problem solved.”

English should be the sole language of aviation and all users should be proficient in it for aviation purposes and use the correct aviation terminology and pronunciation. However there is an even better remedy to avoid misunderstandings for such routine instructions as line up and hold or cleared for take-off. It’s long past time to be using TEXT-based communications with standard instructions and phraseology instead of relying on voice transmissions!
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Old 17th Feb 2008, 12:24
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Learn english, problem solved.
Aah yes, spoken like a true native English speaker.

Perhaps the international language in aviation should be Japanese, then there would have been no problem. Plenty of mis-communication between English native speakers still occurs. Don't forget that.
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Old 17th Feb 2008, 12:40
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Quite a reccuring problem with JAL, thats the 3rd one in the last 18 months that has become public and the 2nd in Hokkaido. JCAB will be spitting the dummy at them again.
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Old 17th Feb 2008, 14:40
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No jumping to conclusions

The controller told the aircraft that it was expected to be cleared for takeoff soon but the pilot apparently misunderstood it as an order for an immediate takeoff, the airline said.
Seeing that this is not a direct quote from the actual transmission but a quote from an airline spokesperson to a journalist, perhaps we should wait to see if the word "departure" was used properly in the transmission between ATC and pilot.

It wouldn't be the first time things were dumbed down for journalists.

Best to all,

PE
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Old 17th Feb 2008, 16:50
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Not the first time

4 or 5 years ago a JAL acft was told to line up and hold, and he rolled down the runway and completed his takeoff. I know because I worked at JAL back then. I think it even happen at the same airport (Haikado).

On the previous incident it was a CRM problem because the Capt thought he was cleared, the FO thought different but was too afraid to say anything.
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Old 17th Feb 2008, 17:53
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Exclamation

Just replying to Carrier regarding the use of text-based comms. for standard instructions. I also read a very good post elsewhere which summed up the antiquity of vocal radio communications technology. I agree with this; it is bizarre behaviour for such a safety-critical environment. But then again, I'm one of the few who also think that driving a car is a bizarrely dangerous activity.

That aside.. I understand that flight plans, for example, are already transferred in some cases by text, and directly to FMC's. I see a few issues with the transmission and reception of what are currently voice instructions, however.

Text instructions require reading. ATC vectoring can be read and then verbally communicated by the non-handling pilot, fine. It adds a small link to the information chain but removes the issue of non-std phraseology- or does it?

Consider: the controller would have 2 options - 1, type his or her own message to the crew, or 2, select from a list of standard calls (a list as long as CAP 413!!). In the first case, non-std phraseology or numeric errors in entering headings can be made. In the second case, it would take ages to send a command. In both cases the command has to be sent to the correct aircraft using a keyboard, which is more prone to errors than your voice.

But would this be worth it to prevent using this old RT shenanigans? Well, a voice radio would still be required to transmit immediate commands, for maintaining separation and this would include emergencies. And about situational awareness for pilots, as mentioned by londonmet? We would either need to develop a method of sending pilots ATC information, not that there aren't enough items to monitor in the flight deck already, or somehow send the text commands as electronically-generated voice commands on some kind of monitoring frequency. But we don't want these interrupting high priority real-voice calls! Meaning pilots then have to monitor two frequencies.

It becomes incredibly complicated and adds many options for failure, because of that complexity. I think the real beauty of our antiquated system is its simplicity. At least in that respect alone, it's the safest.

AD
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Old 18th Feb 2008, 02:30
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communications in japan

i've been in japan for nearly 3 years now and what really iritates me is the way they (atc) use non-standard terminologies like "expect..." appended to standard clearances which to me is just irrelevant information and confuses the more important clearance issue. as professionals we don't need to be reminded of what to expect. clearance and what follows are pretty standard for crying out loud! it is common knowledge in aviation worldwide that the term "take-off" was never to be used by both parties until "cleared for take-off". i hope something positive comes out from this incident to improve communiction standards.
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Old 18th Feb 2008, 03:09
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Hmmm, having flown to Japan for many years, I have found the Japanese ATC to be quite good, and mis-understandings (at least in our case) very few.
Perhaps some of the folks who have problems with Japan ATC just aren't trying hard enough...

Now, sometimes the intonation can be a tad odd, for example, one time flying north toward NRT, my First Officer is looking carefully at the enroute chart, then asks..."Captain, I can't find this 'burning toe' fix anywhere.'
Of course, it was 'bonito', nevertheless it did sound a bit strange...
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Old 18th Feb 2008, 04:36
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Hi,

What use a train driver for start his train and leave the rail station...?
A green light signal .....
No need to speak to him or send him a txt message
So complicate to implement on a runway ? (green and red light)
You know ..it's work also on the crossroads

Cheers.
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Old 18th Feb 2008, 05:13
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Hey 411A, the last captain to refer to me as " MY first officer " was told to stick it where the sun don't shine. you must have been such a joy to fly with.
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Old 18th Feb 2008, 07:05
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Why not introduce the phrase used for many years at the Oshkosh EAA Fly-in when cleared for line-up after another a/c landing:
"Start high speed taxi, expect take-off clearance"
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Old 18th Feb 2008, 07:28
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Aah yes, spoken like a true native English speaker.

Perhaps the international language in aviation should be Japanese, then there would have been no problem. Plenty of mis-communication between English native speakers still occurs. Don't forget that.
The language is irrelevant, let it be Greek, Latin or Tagalog. It doesn't matter. It happens to be English. Pilots are required to be proficient in it. It's as simple as that. Hence the new ICAO rules that mean even English speakers must pass a test to prove they don't have to be re-tested every few years.
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Old 18th Feb 2008, 07:35
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Thumbs down

Hey Pool Boy,
If you'd reacted like that to me or many of my fellow captains you'd have been off to visit the chief pilot whilst I arranged for another FO to be pulled off standby
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