Air Traffic Controllers Jumpseating at your airline?
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>But someone decided that the program for controllers caused a conflict >of interest 
and it was canceled. Now we have controllers that haven't >the slightest idea of what takes place in the cockpit, especially during >weather days.
ZHU -
In the US we lost it after 9/11, as part of the security crackdown. It's still on the FAA's books, but they won't pay to put us in CASS (costs $$), and they don't want us lowly controllers actually getting something. Nothing to do with conflict of interest.
and it was canceled. Now we have controllers that haven't >the slightest idea of what takes place in the cockpit, especially during >weather days.ZHU -
In the US we lost it after 9/11, as part of the security crackdown. It's still on the FAA's books, but they won't pay to put us in CASS (costs $$), and they don't want us lowly controllers actually getting something. Nothing to do with conflict of interest.
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ATCO-student here.
During the last 2.5 months I've gotten 5 trips in the jumpseat (out of 7 flights). I've just asked politely when boarding, and flashed my passport + school-ID.... MD80, A320, 737.... Extremely cool
During the last 2.5 months I've gotten 5 trips in the jumpseat (out of 7 flights). I've just asked politely when boarding, and flashed my passport + school-ID.... MD80, A320, 737.... Extremely cool
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But someone decided that the program for controllers caused a conflict of interest and it was canceled. Now we have controllers that haven't the slightest idea of what takes place in the cockpit, especially during weather days.
CZHU
and it was canceled. Now we have controllers that haven't the slightest idea of what takes place in the cockpit, especially during weather days.CZHU
Although not the same as far as the ATCO is concerned with regards to witnessing an actual flight, a visit to a centre or airport would provide a decent two way dialogue.
To slightly bastardize the quote from CHZU above "We have pilots that haven't the slightest idea of what takes place in the tower/centre, especially during weather days."
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As a UK ATCO my unit has arrangements for FAM flights with selected airlines, all booked atleast 2-3 weeks before. Walk on I doubt any uk airline would allow you on the flightdeck in fact more likely to have you off loaded!!
10d
10d
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Pakeha-Boy, No mate, it did happen...I was at Melbourne's Tullamarine waiting for a flight to Sydney....it was a B737 captain I spoke to....so I waited for the next flight, it was on an old A300-B4200 VH-TAA and the captain was an american...he welcomed me with open arms and said "I already have another of you guys flying, lucky there are 2 jump seats"...and indeed, a Moorabbin Tower controller and I flew on the cockpit of the A300 to Sydney. When I was asked why I didnt get on the previous flight, I had to tell them the truth, there were collective shakes of the head!
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It would help explain to the ATC chaps why we don't want such early descents to satisfy block standing agreements 
Same as unattainable climb restrictions
Seriously, they are great, good communication, yes they are available, sad thing is that usually the ATCO's need to do it on a day off
Get a grip management - this is a safety issue.
Same as unattainable climb restrictions
Seriously, they are great, good communication, yes they are available, sad thing is that usually the ATCO's need to do it on a day off
Get a grip management - this is a safety issue.
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we even practice this regulary, every trainee atco gets at least one jump-seat flight, and few years ago, we did this for the pilots of our major airline as well - they came to our simulator and ops room to observe our work. I must say that the relations and understanding ouf our jobs (both) increased significantly. and respect as well...
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I am pretty sure the IG report that I read years ago mentioned conflict of interest (But I am getting old ). And 9/11 just sealed the fate of the FAA Fam program. But the main point is that as pilots and controllers the knowlege of what is actually happening in the cockpit/tower/center etc is very important. I obtained my pilots lic. just so I would know what a pilot had to deal with, and it helped, just as the FAM program helped.
CZHU
). And 9/11 just sealed the fate of the FAA Fam program. But the main point is that as pilots and controllers the knowlege of what is actually happening in the cockpit/tower/center etc is very important. I obtained my pilots lic. just so I would know what a pilot had to deal with, and it helped, just as the FAM program helped.CZHU
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I'm in dispatch/flight ops and it is compulsory for us to ride in the cockpit at least once every 2 years. The civil aviation bods take "check rides" (usually just an excuse to get a free ticket to somewhere they need to go, I think) every now and then. But...sadly...I've never heard of any ATCOs doing the same.
Should be permitted though. I learn a lot every time I go up the front.
Should be permitted though. I learn a lot every time I go up the front.
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Not legal in Canada anymore
We used to do it before 9/11 but Transport Canada changed all that. Now only our own airline employees are allowed in the cockpit, and only if there is not room in the back. Its a shame....
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My airline allows ATC guys and even ramp agents to observe flights if requested. Head of flight OPS and OCC have to approve it. We (OPS) also have to have observation flights (it is a must for navigation guys to keep their licence).
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To the best of my knowledge ATC types in Canada can no longer have access to the flight deck even if they are on a full fare ticket. In fact it appears that no one other than the crew operating the flight (front or rear end) can have access. Even the captain's wife was refused.
Controllers were never carried on jump seat by the majors in Canada unless it was a scheduled fam flight. I do know that many Canadian controllers could fly jump seat with some American carriers just by showing up and presenting credentials.
I will agree that carrying controllers who are genuinely interested in flight operations 'from the other side of the mike' should be encouraged. I knew many controllers who learned many things by being there and it made sense.
Controllers were never carried on jump seat by the majors in Canada unless it was a scheduled fam flight. I do know that many Canadian controllers could fly jump seat with some American carriers just by showing up and presenting credentials.
I will agree that carrying controllers who are genuinely interested in flight operations 'from the other side of the mike' should be encouraged. I knew many controllers who learned many things by being there and it made sense.
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The US/FAA jumseat program was cancelled due to security issues immediately following 9/11. The security issues have since been mostly addressed but the program has no momentum since those that administrate such things are not eligible to participate; participation always has been restricted to ATC personnel current on at least three control positions.
Likewise pilots should get out of the cockpit and go and spend some time in the Tower or Centre, and meet the local ATC folks.
Always good to put a face to the voice that you deal with on a regular basis, and most ATC folk make a pretty good cup of coffee and like to have a good old chat.
They used to hire us at once stage to fly the new tower guys around to show them the VFR approach points, various places in the zone etc all good fun.
Spent plenty of time at the local Flight Service Unit as well before they were "******".
Willoz269 sounds like your first crew were a bit unsure of themselves and didn't want anyone looking over their shoulder.
Always liked that story about the ace Ansett DC-9 crew who had the ATC guy on board, gcoming down the QLD coast and the were to busy talking and forgot to pickup the new VOR radial passing overhead the Mackay or Rocky VOR and finished off track, until they realised there mistake much swearing and cursing. Capt says to the FO, "C***** in BN won't notice as we are not in Radar coverage ha ha", FO says "along as our mate in jumpseat keeps quiet it will be okay", Captain "F*** I forgot he was an ATC", ATC in jumpseat says "Didn't see nothing and what time is dinner tonight "
Always good to put a face to the voice that you deal with on a regular basis, and most ATC folk make a pretty good cup of coffee and like to have a good old chat.
They used to hire us at once stage to fly the new tower guys around to show them the VFR approach points, various places in the zone etc all good fun.
Spent plenty of time at the local Flight Service Unit as well before they were "******".
Willoz269 sounds like your first crew were a bit unsure of themselves and didn't want anyone looking over their shoulder.
Always liked that story about the ace Ansett DC-9 crew who had the ATC guy on board, gcoming down the QLD coast and the were to busy talking and forgot to pickup the new VOR radial passing overhead the Mackay or Rocky VOR and finished off track, until they realised there mistake much swearing and cursing. Capt says to the FO, "C***** in BN won't notice as we are not in Radar coverage ha ha", FO says "along as our mate in jumpseat keeps quiet it will be okay", Captain "F*** I forgot he was an ATC", ATC in jumpseat says "Didn't see nothing and what time is dinner tonight "
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As a retired 26 year IFR TCU controller I flew jumpseat as often as I could, be it on authorized fam flights or just getting on as a controller. As I wrote above, the experience I picked up in all cases was worthwhile. I found out that planes cannot 'come down and slow down at the same time' and 'keeping 210 to the marker' was not always preferred.
In my career I was even able to get on training flights in DC8s and DC9s, L-1011s and 747s. I was very fortunate to fly jump seat for the last 30 minutes on Concorde between Toronto and London in 1989. I was a paying passenger, not on a fam.
Sadly in some cases, controllers on fam flights merely used the program as a means to travel and avoided any visit to the flight deck at all.
I am also a multi-engine IFR rated pilot and being in the cockpit was all the more interesting, especially in glass cockpits which were out of my realm of experience as an instrument pilot.
Back in those years the airlines often had a get together evening with pilots and controllers having a chance to meet and greet. Sharing experiences, beefs and suggestions certainly made the job easier and better for both and meeting the voice on the other side of the microphone, added a personal touch.
I have not been involved since 1994 and have no idea as to what programs are in place now but the experiences I garnered during my career flying jumpseat and meeting pilots in a social setting, was a great benefit and something that should be strongly encouraged.
In my career I was even able to get on training flights in DC8s and DC9s, L-1011s and 747s. I was very fortunate to fly jump seat for the last 30 minutes on Concorde between Toronto and London in 1989. I was a paying passenger, not on a fam.
Sadly in some cases, controllers on fam flights merely used the program as a means to travel and avoided any visit to the flight deck at all.
I am also a multi-engine IFR rated pilot and being in the cockpit was all the more interesting, especially in glass cockpits which were out of my realm of experience as an instrument pilot.
Back in those years the airlines often had a get together evening with pilots and controllers having a chance to meet and greet. Sharing experiences, beefs and suggestions certainly made the job easier and better for both and meeting the voice on the other side of the microphone, added a personal touch.
I have not been involved since 1994 and have no idea as to what programs are in place now but the experiences I garnered during my career flying jumpseat and meeting pilots in a social setting, was a great benefit and something that should be strongly encouraged.
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To the best of my knowledge ATC types in Canada can no longer have access to the flight deck even if they are on a full fare ticket. In fact it appears that no one other than the crew operating the flight (front or rear end) can have access. Even the captain's wife was refused.
Controllers were never carried on jump seat by the majors in Canada unless it was a scheduled fam flight. I do know that many Canadian controllers could fly jump seat with some American carriers just by showing up and presenting credentials.
I will agree that carrying controllers who are genuinely interested in flight operations 'from the other side of the mike' should be encouraged. I knew many controllers who learned many things by being there and it made sense.
This isn`t 100% true. I`ve flown jump since 9/11, and not as an airline employee. People used to fly jump in Canada off of a fam flight quite often, I did so a few times myself while I was in pilot training.
My last jump ride was on one of Canadas big carriers, it required a ton of string pulling (foolish) but was a very enjoyable trip (I paid full fare btw)
Controllers were never carried on jump seat by the majors in Canada unless it was a scheduled fam flight. I do know that many Canadian controllers could fly jump seat with some American carriers just by showing up and presenting credentials.
I will agree that carrying controllers who are genuinely interested in flight operations 'from the other side of the mike' should be encouraged. I knew many controllers who learned many things by being there and it made sense.
This isn`t 100% true. I`ve flown jump since 9/11, and not as an airline employee. People used to fly jump in Canada off of a fam flight quite often, I did so a few times myself while I was in pilot training.
My last jump ride was on one of Canadas big carriers, it required a ton of string pulling (foolish) but was a very enjoyable trip (I paid full fare btw)