Very Light Jets with no TCAS in commercial airspace
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Drifting, at sea.
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What can you expect, in terms of lame excuses, from a person as ignorant as Mr. Vilner.
His statements speak for themselves, too costly and not required, Iīm not surprised, he hasnīt learned anything since he left Sterling.
To actually suggest that as long as the passengers are not aware of the missing TCAS, itīs OK with him. God forbid they have an accident in their shiny new VLJ, due to lack of TCAS.
Shame on you Mr. Vilner, you must be proud of your cost cutting measures.
I hope that at least some of their potential costumers will vote with their feet, and seek out the operators who take safety seriously.
How exactly are they going to operate away from busy european airspace?
Mr. Vilner, I bet you wouldnīt buy a car today, that does not have Airbags, ABS, ESP etc, etc, even though it is not required......?
My 2 cents worth,
His statements speak for themselves, too costly and not required, Iīm not surprised, he hasnīt learned anything since he left Sterling.
To actually suggest that as long as the passengers are not aware of the missing TCAS, itīs OK with him. God forbid they have an accident in their shiny new VLJ, due to lack of TCAS.
Shame on you Mr. Vilner, you must be proud of your cost cutting measures.
I hope that at least some of their potential costumers will vote with their feet, and seek out the operators who take safety seriously.
How exactly are they going to operate away from busy european airspace?
Mr. Vilner, I bet you wouldnīt buy a car today, that does not have Airbags, ABS, ESP etc, etc, even though it is not required......?
My 2 cents worth,
Last edited by Life boat; 9th Feb 2008 at 23:32.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NZWN New Zealand
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not implying I am an old fellah, or anything, but it does remind me of when White Star were excused from fitting enough lifeboats for the Titanic.
You'd think the Gol crash would be enough, but a highly resistant strain of bureaucrats now have greater immunity to common sense than they had in 1912.
Sorry to make light of a serious topic, but the above topic got me thinking about TCAS in jet fighters...
I couldn't stop grinning when I thought about the collision advisory alerts during a dog fight:
"Sorry skipper... my sidewinders couldn't get a lock on because of all the TCAS alerts." ha ha
You'd think the Gol crash would be enough, but a highly resistant strain of bureaucrats now have greater immunity to common sense than they had in 1912.
That said, it does seem ridiculous to me that a high-performance jet of any type, especially a single-pilot one in busy European airspace, does not have TCAS.
I couldn't stop grinning when I thought about the collision advisory alerts during a dog fight:
"Sorry skipper... my sidewinders couldn't get a lock on because of all the TCAS alerts." ha ha
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Bournemouth, UK
Age: 56
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the UK at least.. it seems the CAA are planning (despite rigorous objections from the GA sector/glider pilots etc) to blanket bomb the whole issue by mandating Mode-S transponders on anything that flys, see:
http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1698&pagetype=90&pageid=9307
Call me a pessimist
, but this just seems to be a pre-cursor to expanding the existing controlled airspace within the UK to provide more capacity as a result of the increase in the number low cost airline movements.
http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1698&pagetype=90&pageid=9307
Call me a pessimist
, but this just seems to be a pre-cursor to expanding the existing controlled airspace within the UK to provide more capacity as a result of the increase in the number low cost airline movements.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,576
Received 426 Likes
on
225 Posts
TCAS should be mandatory for any AOC operated aircraft.
You want to share the space? Share the cost. Or get the hell out of my way.
I wonder what will happen to some of these expensive toys??
http://www.glumbert.com/media/planecrash
http://www.glumbert.com/media/planecrash
Join Date: May 2002
Location: still in bed
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"TCAS or not TCAS that is the question"Hamlet
Stefan Vilner, its chief executive, said: First of all its very costly and secondly its not required.
I can't believe his words! For him lives have a little cost. a recipe for disaster.
Welcome The VLJ in the world for the rich and famous but not at the expenses of the Public transportation network! Triple the taxes to pay extra controllers and give them a corridor for speeding along together only, and we will see them buying a TCAS.
happy skies!
I can't believe his words! For him lives have a little cost. a recipe for disaster.
Welcome The VLJ in the world for the rich and famous but not at the expenses of the Public transportation network! Triple the taxes to pay extra controllers and give them a corridor for speeding along together only, and we will see them buying a TCAS.
happy skies!
Re. the CitationJet2 crash:
The CitationJet departed Burlington (BTV) around 14:45 on a routine flight to Atlantic City (AIY). The pilot first made a low pass down runway 29 and then return to land on runway 11. After touchdown the airplane failed to stop and overran the runway and into the Intercoastal Waterway. The occupants were rescued by a boat.
According to the Cessna 525A Landing Distance Chart, an airplane with a landing weight of 11,000 pounds required 2,930 feet of landing distance, in a no wind situation. With a 10 knot tailwind, which was the approx wind at the time of the accident, the airplane required 3,500 feet of landing distance. Runway 11 at Bader Field is a 2,948 foot-long, 100 foot-wide, asphalt runway. Bader Field is normally closed to jet traffic.
All the TCAS in the world isn't going to protect such people....
Of course, people-tubes will be able to see them on TCAS and follow any TA/RA as every VLJ will have at least Mode C. It's VLJ on VLJ that is the non-TCAS risk
The CitationJet departed Burlington (BTV) around 14:45 on a routine flight to Atlantic City (AIY). The pilot first made a low pass down runway 29 and then return to land on runway 11. After touchdown the airplane failed to stop and overran the runway and into the Intercoastal Waterway. The occupants were rescued by a boat.
According to the Cessna 525A Landing Distance Chart, an airplane with a landing weight of 11,000 pounds required 2,930 feet of landing distance, in a no wind situation. With a 10 knot tailwind, which was the approx wind at the time of the accident, the airplane required 3,500 feet of landing distance. Runway 11 at Bader Field is a 2,948 foot-long, 100 foot-wide, asphalt runway. Bader Field is normally closed to jet traffic.
All the TCAS in the world isn't going to protect such people....
Of course, people-tubes will be able to see them on TCAS and follow any TA/RA as every VLJ will have at least Mode C. It's VLJ on VLJ that is the non-TCAS risk
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Scotland
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One of our Citations does not have TCAS as it was not fitted at factory as it was not required, the newer citations we have all got TCAS at the factory, re the LEA mustangs l dont believe they have TCAS as such but a different system called TIS (Traffic Information Service), think its produced by Garmin.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Round n About
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr Stefan Vilner is obviously a man that knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing. What is even more amazing is that he is still employed by this company what sort of CEO goes public in the press and implies that his potential customer base is full of people too stupid to ask the right questions about safety. Some sort of tabloid expose might be the best thing to help him understand the error of his ways.
As mentioned in a previous post, finding the pilots is going to be a major headache for these operators and Mr Stefan Vilner's attitude to this safety issue should perhaps make people think twice before sending in a CV.
As mentioned in a previous post, finding the pilots is going to be a major headache for these operators and Mr Stefan Vilner's attitude to this safety issue should perhaps make people think twice before sending in a CV.
An interesting side effect:
Aircraft > 5700Kg MTOW that are mandated to have TCAS will still get TA and RA alerts/commands from VLJs that are transponder equipped, i.e. all of them that operate in CAS.
VLJ vs. VLJ is a different proposition as neither will be aware of the other's presence if conventional means of separation fail...
Edit: I see BEagle got to this point first but I think it bears repetition.
Aircraft > 5700Kg MTOW that are mandated to have TCAS will still get TA and RA alerts/commands from VLJs that are transponder equipped, i.e. all of them that operate in CAS.
VLJ vs. VLJ is a different proposition as neither will be aware of the other's presence if conventional means of separation fail...
Edit: I see BEagle got to this point first but I think it bears repetition.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One of our Citations does not have TCAS as it was not fitted at factory as it was not required, the newer citations we have all got TCAS at the factory, re the LEA mustangs l dont believe they have TCAS as such but a different system called TIS (Traffic Information Service), think its produced by Garmin.
The TCAS I used would only give a TA on a Mode C intruder although, I believe, TCAS 2 will give TA/RA under the same conditions.
Certainly recollect eyeballs swivelling as TA appeared to close in
Certainly recollect eyeballs swivelling as TA appeared to close in
foxtrot xray
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beagle
Spot on Beagle
Even "little" guys plodding along below 10k now have TIS... while no RA is produced,the information and warning is there for the monitoring. No doubt that TCAS is the best but we get all these experts on here bloviating about that which they know squat.
Even "little" guys plodding along below 10k now have TIS... while no RA is produced,the information and warning is there for the monitoring. No doubt that TCAS is the best but we get all these experts on here bloviating about that which they know squat.
Alternative systems
Zaon offers two low cost traffic alert systems which show relative altitude. The $1800 box also gives a quadrantial bearing
Europe also has the FLARM system priced at EUR 574.20. They refuse to sell to North America because of lawyer infestation
In a perfect world, the aviation authorities would decree FLARM on board everything -- instead of Mode S.
Europe also has the FLARM system priced at EUR 574.20. They refuse to sell to North America because of lawyer infestation
In a perfect world, the aviation authorities would decree FLARM on board everything -- instead of Mode S.
VLJs and ACAS II
In July last year I wrote to the UK CAA proposing that VLJs operating in European airspace should be required to carry and operate ACAS II. As part of my argument I wrote that, "With the impending arrival of VLJ aeroplanes in UK/European airspace, given that their performance capabilities would seem to enable them to operate amongst aeroplanes operated for commercial air transport (and which are currently required to carry and operate ACAS II), there would seem to be a risk that the protection afforded to the occupants of the latter against close encounters with VLJ aeroplanes will reduce from current standards".
I suggested that, "EUROCONTROL might wish to consider introducing - as early as is reasonable, given that it takes time to install equipment such as ACAS II to existing airframes - ACAS II as an airspace requirement, leaving EASA to consider developing an aircraft requirement (for the world-wide protection of VLJs registered in a State subject to EASA Regulations and operated for whatever purpose) in another, possibly later, timeframe".
I received a prompt and comprehensive reply to my letter, the nub being that ICAO was already looking at a means by which GA aircraft might be made subject to two discriminants, (a) one being aeroplanes with limited performance, and (b) the other being aircraft of MTOW exceeding 5,700 kg (12,500 lbs) or having one or more turboject engines, so that any requirements for carriage of safety equipments (such as ACAS II) might be directed at the second (more capable/heavier/complex) category.
I was informed that EUROCONTROL had aired the issue (VLJs not required to carry ACAS II) at a workshop in May 2007, at which EASA had also declared their concern.
So what this means is that the two agencies in Europe that are currently responsible for developing policies for the carriage and operation of safety equipment are fully aware of the concerns such as have been expressed in this thread, as that ICAO will develop Standards and Recommended Practices that will need to be taken into account by States, affecting both aircraft manufacturers and operators in due course. I suspect that the European regulatory authories will get there first and will in consequence develop appropriate airspace, operational and aircraft requirements. In the meantime I was told that the CAA would monitor developments and, if necessary and where possible, introduce their own rules for safety.
I suggested that, "EUROCONTROL might wish to consider introducing - as early as is reasonable, given that it takes time to install equipment such as ACAS II to existing airframes - ACAS II as an airspace requirement, leaving EASA to consider developing an aircraft requirement (for the world-wide protection of VLJs registered in a State subject to EASA Regulations and operated for whatever purpose) in another, possibly later, timeframe".
I received a prompt and comprehensive reply to my letter, the nub being that ICAO was already looking at a means by which GA aircraft might be made subject to two discriminants, (a) one being aeroplanes with limited performance, and (b) the other being aircraft of MTOW exceeding 5,700 kg (12,500 lbs) or having one or more turboject engines, so that any requirements for carriage of safety equipments (such as ACAS II) might be directed at the second (more capable/heavier/complex) category.
I was informed that EUROCONTROL had aired the issue (VLJs not required to carry ACAS II) at a workshop in May 2007, at which EASA had also declared their concern.
So what this means is that the two agencies in Europe that are currently responsible for developing policies for the carriage and operation of safety equipment are fully aware of the concerns such as have been expressed in this thread, as that ICAO will develop Standards and Recommended Practices that will need to be taken into account by States, affecting both aircraft manufacturers and operators in due course. I suspect that the European regulatory authories will get there first and will in consequence develop appropriate airspace, operational and aircraft requirements. In the meantime I was told that the CAA would monitor developments and, if necessary and where possible, introduce their own rules for safety.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: France
Posts: 2,315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nugget90,
You obviously know what you are talking about.
I hope you're right, and that the usual procrastination does not lead to a few nasty mid-airs that could have been avoided, before there is some more stringent rule-making.
You obviously know what you are talking about.
I hope you're right, and that the usual procrastination does not lead to a few nasty mid-airs that could have been avoided, before there is some more stringent rule-making.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just trying to remember how it was before 2000 when most of aircraft in Europe were not equipped with TCAS/ACAS... I cannot recall we were missing airframes at the rate 1 per day or so 
