BA B777 Incident @ Heathrow (merged)
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Some of the media stories and posts have been referring to electrical failure issues with the 777 - I'm guessing that they are referring to incidents like this http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...7%20N786UA.pdf
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Gaspath, I am very interested to know how you believe the you know the engine FMU's responded to the throttle command. In my experience, you only can tell something like that by studying the QAR data.
As the FMU's
1) have no external moving parts and
2) would be covered by the engine fan cowls (and latterly by a few tons of earth) I'm sure that your ability to see the unviewable would be of service for many accidents.
To all those who are singling out the engines for sole fault on the basis that both failed simultaneously, I invite you to remember that the the item that links both engines and their control is the airframe and the flight control electronics.
When two engines 'fail' simultaneously, the cause is very likely to be external to the engine.
As the FMU's
1) have no external moving parts and
2) would be covered by the engine fan cowls (and latterly by a few tons of earth) I'm sure that your ability to see the unviewable would be of service for many accidents.
To all those who are singling out the engines for sole fault on the basis that both failed simultaneously, I invite you to remember that the the item that links both engines and their control is the airframe and the flight control electronics.
When two engines 'fail' simultaneously, the cause is very likely to be external to the engine.
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Quote:
Did the Fuel Metering Unit/Valve Resolvers on the Engine/s Respond to the Throttle Resolvers in the Flight Deck?
Yes I believe they did.
Thanks Gaspath.....
Any idea of Fuel Quality Checks carried out from Fuel on Aircraft?
Did the Fuel Metering Unit/Valve Resolvers on the Engine/s Respond to the Throttle Resolvers in the Flight Deck?
Yes I believe they did.
Thanks Gaspath.....
Any idea of Fuel Quality Checks carried out from Fuel on Aircraft?
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Reports seem to suggest that all electrical power was lost and the cockpit avionics went dead.
ALL electrical power would NOT be lost, even if the engines died, the RAT and APU did not start up... and the wings fell off. This is what Battery & Standby Power is for ... and generates sufficient power for dozens of systems to operate (including instruments)
The open APU inlet door suggested that the APU may have tried to autostart due to loss of main bus power, but with most of the fuselage fairly intact, it may have even tried to start AFTER crashing.
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aftermath
Slightly off subject, but having read comments from passengers on how they were treated by ground staff I want to ask what basis BA have for keeping passesngers virtually under arrest? Seems to me they want to stop passengers speaking to the media more than anything.
Accepted there is immigration and customs, but heard similar stories before on domestic.
If I were an uninjured survivor I suspect I would go and tell them to get the police and formally arrest me otherwise I'm off!!. What powers do they have to detain?
Good show in the air BA, less so on the ground.
Accepted there is immigration and customs, but heard similar stories before on domestic.
If I were an uninjured survivor I suspect I would go and tell them to get the police and formally arrest me otherwise I'm off!!. What powers do they have to detain?
Good show in the air BA, less so on the ground.
Prof overun, why don't you go back to your Flightsim forums?
http://nzff.org/forum/index.php?act=...2Bthronomister
Carburettors? Give me a break
http://nzff.org/forum/index.php?act=...2Bthronomister
Carburettors? Give me a break
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The AAIB report says "2 miles", can someone confirm this means 2 nautical miles (3.7km) and not 2 statute miles (3.2km)?
Well done to all involved.
Aircraft are replaceable, people aren't.
Well done to all involved.
Aircraft are replaceable, people aren't.
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Is anyone like me getting the hint that this sounds more like a complete loss of electrics and systems, rather than a dual failure?? Maybe the engines were indeed idling all the way in and were not responding to any demands.
If this was the case the residual thrust could have been a saver, and gave just enough to get it over the fence....
Anyway, what does my speculation matter...!!!
More to the point will the BBC PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get someone who knows a slad tad of anything about aviation to head their broadcasts on this matter......."..apparently the Captains number 2 was flying the airplane in, something that is apparently quite normal.."..........
If this was the case the residual thrust could have been a saver, and gave just enough to get it over the fence....
Anyway, what does my speculation matter...!!!
More to the point will the BBC PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get someone who knows a slad tad of anything about aviation to head their broadcasts on this matter......."..apparently the Captains number 2 was flying the airplane in, something that is apparently quite normal.."..........
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General comment.777.
Have been drawn to PPRuNe by the recent events at LHR. As so many other "authors" have said, it was so exasperating hearing the speculation and guesswork being bandied about by the media, not to mention poor interpretation of the facts when they were finally produced yesterday.
I think the most overiding thing is that Captain Burkill and his crew did a SUPERB job in what is surely a nightmare situation. All of us that fly whether it be a B747 or a light aircraft can imagine the gut feeling when you advance those thrust levers and get no response. The sight of the runway disappearing into the distance..... what a nightmare. So I think one has to remember the old saying... "if you can walk away from it, it was a good landing"!!!.....
Well done to the whole crew for a most professional outcome!!!!
I think the most overiding thing is that Captain Burkill and his crew did a SUPERB job in what is surely a nightmare situation. All of us that fly whether it be a B747 or a light aircraft can imagine the gut feeling when you advance those thrust levers and get no response. The sight of the runway disappearing into the distance..... what a nightmare. So I think one has to remember the old saying... "if you can walk away from it, it was a good landing"!!!.....
Well done to the whole crew for a most professional outcome!!!!
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For those non-pilots amongst our readers and the press that still bang on about engine failure......
Imagine your driving down a long straight road in your car and there are no other vehicles about. You approach a set of traffic lights ahead which are on red. You take your foot of the accelerator pedal in order to slow down. No brakes required as your some distance to go. Now the lights turn green and so you put your foot down on the accelerator pedal but you do not speed up or even maintain the same speed. The car slows down. The engine is still running `cos you can hear it, but the tacho shows your engine at idle. You press the pedal again but still the engine fails to respond. You coast to a stop 100ft short of the traffic lights. Other than getting out and pushing there is no way you can make it to the lights.
You call out the AA and he tells you your throttle cable has snapped.
THe AAIB said nothing about engine failure. Just a failure to respond.
Now I know bugger all about triple 7`s but if they`ve got the equivalant of a throttle cable thats common to to cruise control and the accelerator....then thats not a bad place to start looking.
Obviously my theory is blown apart if the supposition that they were cda all the way down to spooling up at config full, gear down and vref at 600ft is not the case.
Imagine your driving down a long straight road in your car and there are no other vehicles about. You approach a set of traffic lights ahead which are on red. You take your foot of the accelerator pedal in order to slow down. No brakes required as your some distance to go. Now the lights turn green and so you put your foot down on the accelerator pedal but you do not speed up or even maintain the same speed. The car slows down. The engine is still running `cos you can hear it, but the tacho shows your engine at idle. You press the pedal again but still the engine fails to respond. You coast to a stop 100ft short of the traffic lights. Other than getting out and pushing there is no way you can make it to the lights.
You call out the AA and he tells you your throttle cable has snapped.
THe AAIB said nothing about engine failure. Just a failure to respond.
Now I know bugger all about triple 7`s but if they`ve got the equivalant of a throttle cable thats common to to cruise control and the accelerator....then thats not a bad place to start looking.
Obviously my theory is blown apart if the supposition that they were cda all the way down to spooling up at config full, gear down and vref at 600ft is not the case.
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B777 At EGLL
As an ex-PPL of very low hours I will not speculate on the cause of this incident. I will leave that to the experts of the AAIB and other competent organisations.
As to why there was no Mayday call or cabin PA announcements, I remember my CFI telling me that when confronted with an emergency the first thing was to FTFA (Fly The F Aeroplane). IMHO any emergency at 600 ft requires total concentration on flying the aeroplane and perhaps in dealing with the emergency in hand the lower priority matters of Mayday calls and cabin PA announcements got put on the back burner.
All I can say to the flight-deck crew is congratulations on the execution of a fine piece of that old-fashioned thing - Airmanship and to the cabin crew congratulations on a well organised and professional evacuation.
As to why there was no Mayday call or cabin PA announcements, I remember my CFI telling me that when confronted with an emergency the first thing was to FTFA (Fly The F
Aeroplane). IMHO any emergency at 600 ft requires total concentration on flying the aeroplane and perhaps in dealing with the emergency in hand the lower priority matters of Mayday calls and cabin PA announcements got put on the back burner.All I can say to the flight-deck crew is congratulations on the execution of a fine piece of that old-fashioned thing - Airmanship and to the cabin crew congratulations on a well organised and professional evacuation.
Usual disclaimers apply!
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OK lesthegringo I'll rephrase that to 'I'm led to believe that the FMU's followed commanded position'
read into that what you will
However it will all come out in the wash
read into that what you will
However it will all come out in the wash
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And how about if the engines never went up to flight idle, or were never signalled to spool up? It's all pure speculation until more facts come in - and it may be quite a while before they do, given the complexity of the modern systems.
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Sounds like too little time to tell the Cabin Crew.
Had the Cabin Crew and Passengers been aware of what was to come I would guess more people would have got hurt.
All in all, a super result to a big problem, well done to all....
Had the Cabin Crew and Passengers been aware of what was to come I would guess more people would have got hurt.
All in all, a super result to a big problem, well done to all....
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What the hell is going on?
A modern long range twin engine ETOPS approved aircraft experiences an unexplained "situation" where thrust is suddenly not available from either engine.
Am I the only one that has some serious concerns? Wouldn't it be appropriate to ground or limit the type until a plausable explanation can be offered?
Am I the only one that has some serious concerns? Wouldn't it be appropriate to ground or limit the type until a plausable explanation can be offered?
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Murphys law(yer)
It's some time since I was operating LHR but I wonder - is the 777 that clean you can control speed at the '160 till 4' (160 kt till 4 nm) that someone raised earlier, with flap/gear selections only? I would have ASSUMED the engines would have been used somewhere, especially in the reported gusty conditions, and then throttled back to reduce to target threshold speed from 4 miles....
In direct comment on ILoadMyself's post - I do think you could have been just a leeetle bit kinder in your comment on the demeanour of the Cabin Services Director (..."with orders not to look the least bit happy" was how you put it) while on TV, shortly after a VERY fraught experience. Ever heard of Post Traumatic Stress??
Murphy's Law(yer) will be busy!
In direct comment on ILoadMyself's post - I do think you could have been just a leeetle bit kinder in your comment on the demeanour of the Cabin Services Director (..."with orders not to look the least bit happy" was how you put it) while on TV, shortly after a VERY fraught experience. Ever heard of Post Traumatic Stress??
Murphy's Law(yer) will be busy!