Iberia Aborted Landing in Bilbao
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Hi
I believe landing/go-around was around 14:15 UTC... Looking the METAR for LEBB around that hour...
LEBB 151300Z 20019G33KT 150V240 CAVOK 16/05 Q1005 NOSIG=
LEBB 151330Z 20020G37KT 140V250 CAVOK 16/05 Q1005 NOSIG=
LEBB 151400Z 20023G38KT 160V240 CAVOK 17/05 Q1005 NOSIG=
LEBB 151430Z 20029G45KT 170V260 CAVOK 17/05 Q1004 NOSIG=
LEBB 151500Z 21027G48KT 140V260 CAVOK 17/05 Q1003 NOSIG=
LEBB 151530Z 20026G42KT 160V230 CAVOK 17/04 Q1003 NOSIG=
...we can see that it was "windy" and also "a bit too much" variable!
Regards
Miguel Branco da Silva
I believe landing/go-around was around 14:15 UTC... Looking the METAR for LEBB around that hour...
LEBB 151300Z 20019G33KT 150V240 CAVOK 16/05 Q1005 NOSIG=
LEBB 151330Z 20020G37KT 140V250 CAVOK 16/05 Q1005 NOSIG=
LEBB 151400Z 20023G38KT 160V240 CAVOK 17/05 Q1005 NOSIG=
LEBB 151430Z 20029G45KT 170V260 CAVOK 17/05 Q1004 NOSIG=
LEBB 151500Z 21027G48KT 140V260 CAVOK 17/05 Q1003 NOSIG=
LEBB 151530Z 20026G42KT 160V230 CAVOK 17/04 Q1003 NOSIG=
...we can see that it was "windy" and also "a bit too much" variable!
Regards
Miguel Branco da Silva
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Judging form the pictures from the TDZ to the point of lift-off is less than 70 meters therfore the action sequence was less (far less) than a second. Therefore: good reflexis captain! second attemt failed? GO to the alternate please! Accidents happen always the third time.
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For those interested in more about the photos: photographer was Zigor Alkorta. IPTC info associated with the photos is:
"LA PALOMA. LOIU. El vendaval que azoto ayer Euskadi pudo acabar en tragedia, evitada por la pericia de un piloto. El avion de Iberia procedente de Madrid que se disponia a tomar tierra en el aeropuerto de Bilbao tuvo que remontar el vuelo tras tocar su tren de aterrizaje la pista e inclinarse de forma espectacular."
Timing of the photos is: 15:15:38, 15:15:42, 15:15:43, 15:15:44, 15:15:46, 15:15:50. So the full sequence of photos covers 12 seconds and the 2nd-4th photos cover 2 seconds.
400mm on an EOS 20D, from which the determined person could calculate how far the camera is from the aircraft.
"LA PALOMA. LOIU. El vendaval que azoto ayer Euskadi pudo acabar en tragedia, evitada por la pericia de un piloto. El avion de Iberia procedente de Madrid que se disponia a tomar tierra en el aeropuerto de Bilbao tuvo que remontar el vuelo tras tocar su tren de aterrizaje la pista e inclinarse de forma espectacular."
Timing of the photos is: 15:15:38, 15:15:42, 15:15:43, 15:15:44, 15:15:46, 15:15:50. So the full sequence of photos covers 12 seconds and the 2nd-4th photos cover 2 seconds.
400mm on an EOS 20D, from which the determined person could calculate how far the camera is from the aircraft.
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Nearly There
"As for not knowing the basics, do you really think they would be flying if they didn't.."
Yes, is the answer.
It has been well established that introduction of automatics etc., in modern a/c, that basic flying skills have erroded to an alarming extent. To me those pictures have proved it.
I started (still learning) 39 years ago so I have a fair idea from observation if a pilot is handling a situation correctly not. Please don't try and baffle me with science.
All I can really add is this. Thank God for nosewheel a/c
"As for not knowing the basics, do you really think they would be flying if they didn't.."
Yes, is the answer.
It has been well established that introduction of automatics etc., in modern a/c, that basic flying skills have erroded to an alarming extent. To me those pictures have proved it.
I started (still learning) 39 years ago so I have a fair idea from observation if a pilot is handling a situation correctly not. Please don't try and baffle me with science.
All I can really add is this. Thank God for nosewheel a/c
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Hetfield,
You are correct! An IB 320 was written off there a few years back. If the rumour mill of the day was accurate, Airbus admitted some programme shortcommings in the fly by wire when dealing with conditions like these. (i know not much about airbus a/c). I have spent some time at BIO however, and can say that with a southerly breeze like this you can deflect the aileron one way without the wing immediately going the way you would wish. By the time it does move as directed you may no longer want it going that way!
This place gets seriously turbulent down low. Passengers disembark sobbing and greatful to be on the ground. The crew got everyone back to earth safely, no damage to the jet, a little more experience gained.
Anyone trying to put a tailwheel down in these conditions shouldnt be there.
You are correct! An IB 320 was written off there a few years back. If the rumour mill of the day was accurate, Airbus admitted some programme shortcommings in the fly by wire when dealing with conditions like these. (i know not much about airbus a/c). I have spent some time at BIO however, and can say that with a southerly breeze like this you can deflect the aileron one way without the wing immediately going the way you would wish. By the time it does move as directed you may no longer want it going that way!
This place gets seriously turbulent down low. Passengers disembark sobbing and greatful to be on the ground. The crew got everyone back to earth safely, no damage to the jet, a little more experience gained.
Anyone trying to put a tailwheel down in these conditions shouldnt be there.
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Lingasting,
If you are indeed flying for already 39 years, then you should know that by merely looking at some pictures, you still have no idea about the actions of the crew. So either you are a windup, or you are an incredibly obnoxious know-all who thinks he's god's gift to aviation. Both are sad.
So stop your "Spanish" Inquisition and grow up.
If you are indeed flying for already 39 years, then you should know that by merely looking at some pictures, you still have no idea about the actions of the crew. So either you are a windup, or you are an incredibly obnoxious know-all who thinks he's god's gift to aviation. Both are sad.
So stop your "Spanish" Inquisition and grow up.
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Not against the Spanish or the said pilot, it is the system that worries me. The handling pilot took the right course of action in the end. However, looking at the photos, if that been a 4 engined A/c at least one engine would have been "podded".
As me being against the Spanish. Nothing could be further from the truth. One of the finest and most capable pilots I have ever seen and worked with,was an ex Spanish Airforce Hispano ME 109, pilot. Now that guy was good.
Not God's gift to aviation, just an average pilot who has seen more than the average and giving my 2 cents worth.
As me being against the Spanish. Nothing could be further from the truth. One of the finest and most capable pilots I have ever seen and worked with,was an ex Spanish Airforce Hispano ME 109, pilot. Now that guy was good.
Not God's gift to aviation, just an average pilot who has seen more than the average and giving my 2 cents worth.
Last edited by lingasting; 17th Jan 2008 at 08:46.
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Could happen to the best of us, I remember burying the 737 into Bournmouth in about 15 knots! Stand the thrust levers and the spoliers retract and autobrake kicks out, not nice, but, you live and you learn (fast).
As my instructor said to me once, "if you were supposed to get it right first time, there would be no lessons."
MK
As my instructor said to me once, "if you were supposed to get it right first time, there would be no lessons."
MK
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Those us who have been there often will tell you that whenever the wind is from the south or north and over about 15kts, the turbulence near the runway is out of all proportion to the wind strength. It is a function of the valley location and the high ground either side of the approach centrelines.
If you get through your entire flying career without doing a hard/bounced landing from which the prudent course of action is to fly away and try again later, then you have been very lucky. On the other hand, you could say that you have a lot to learn because an experience like that is surely an education. As one who has done pretty much exactly what occurred in these pictures on at least two occasions, one of them at Bilbao and the other at FUE, I commend the pilot for his skill and quick thinking in safely flying the aircraft away from a potentially hazardous situation.
Well done that man!
For you ignorant and inexperienced pilots who are so quick to criticise the pilot on the evidence of a few pictures, either learn by experience or shut up until you know what you are talking about.
If you get through your entire flying career without doing a hard/bounced landing from which the prudent course of action is to fly away and try again later, then you have been very lucky. On the other hand, you could say that you have a lot to learn because an experience like that is surely an education. As one who has done pretty much exactly what occurred in these pictures on at least two occasions, one of them at Bilbao and the other at FUE, I commend the pilot for his skill and quick thinking in safely flying the aircraft away from a potentially hazardous situation.
Well done that man!
For you ignorant and inexperienced pilots who are so quick to criticise the pilot on the evidence of a few pictures, either learn by experience or shut up until you know what you are talking about.
As one who flies an Airbus into BIO on a regular basis, I can confirm Rubik101's experiences of this airport. It really needs to be treated with respect, especially when the wind is gusting from the south! Even when the wind is calm on the ground, 10-15 kts from the south can cause some amazing rotor effects during the initial decent.
All in all, I think he did quite a good job to get that close to the centreline after the VOR Rwy 12....at BIO I think I may have been twiching as the gusts hit 30 kts!
All in all, I think he did quite a good job to get that close to the centreline after the VOR Rwy 12....at BIO I think I may have been twiching as the gusts hit 30 kts!
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The a/c in these pictures is an A321.
There is an airwortiness directive on this sub-model of the A320 series which concerns landing in gusty crosswinds, or if residual icing is suspected. You must land with Flap 3, due to concerns about a/c controllability in Flap Full.
Was flap full used in this case?
It's a bit difficult to see from the photo's.
There is an airwortiness directive on this sub-model of the A320 series which concerns landing in gusty crosswinds, or if residual icing is suspected. You must land with Flap 3, due to concerns about a/c controllability in Flap Full.
Was flap full used in this case?
It's a bit difficult to see from the photo's.
Re crab/de-crab: very often it is being taught to land with crab, since the torquetubes in the gear have no problem handling it, and the risk of a podstrike is too great when applying C152 style x-wind landings.
Though a bit of aileron into the wind never seems to hurt either when winds are really stiff.
My Boeing book reads:
and:
Again, this references only to Boeing aircraft.
Though a bit of aileron into the wind never seems to hurt either when winds are really stiff.
My Boeing book reads:
Sideslip only (zero crab) landings are not recommended in crosswinds in excess of 20 knots. This recommendation ensures adequate ground clearance and is based on maintaining adequate control margin.
Touchdown In Crab
The airplane can land using crab only (zero side slip) up to the landing crosswind guideline speeds. (See the landing crosswind guidelines table, this chapter). On dry runways, upon touchdown the airplane tracks toward the upwind edge of the runway while de-crabbing to align with the runway. Immediate upwind aileron is needed to ensure the wings remain level while rudder is needed to track the runway centerline. The greater the amount of crab at touchdown, the larger the lateral deviation from the point of touchdown. For this reason, touchdown in a crab only condition is not recommended when landing on a dry runway in strong
crosswinds
The airplane can land using crab only (zero side slip) up to the landing crosswind guideline speeds. (See the landing crosswind guidelines table, this chapter). On dry runways, upon touchdown the airplane tracks toward the upwind edge of the runway while de-crabbing to align with the runway. Immediate upwind aileron is needed to ensure the wings remain level while rudder is needed to track the runway centerline. The greater the amount of crab at touchdown, the larger the lateral deviation from the point of touchdown. For this reason, touchdown in a crab only condition is not recommended when landing on a dry runway in strong
crosswinds
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Beware
Two incidents and one accident in a couple of months.
A340 landing accident at UIO
A340 departure with contaminated aircraft and no deicing at BOS
A320 bounced landing/go around at BIO
Do we see a trend here?
A340 landing accident at UIO
A340 departure with contaminated aircraft and no deicing at BOS
A320 bounced landing/go around at BIO
Do we see a trend here?