Qantas B744 Total electrical failure?
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If the battery runs out, you've then also lost attitude reference. Somewhat of a problem if you're IMC at the time, or at night. So yes, the situation would've been extremely serious if they were in the middle of nowhere.?
If not in the middle of the ocean, maybe I would call for some military fighter escort before the batt run out? then I would follow them in formation
Has been done before
If not in the middle of the ocean, maybe I would call for some military fighter escort before the batt run out? then I would follow them in formation
Has been done before
flying on battery with only the standby AI, standby airspeed, and standby altimeter is not easy in the 747-400
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GPS's WITH LIMITED PSEUDO INSTRUMENTATION
The portable GPS units with pseudo instrumentation are produced by GARMIN. These are the 196 (B&W), 296 (Color), 396 (Color +) and 496 (Color ++). The instrumentation is all GPS derived and lags a bit. I've heard from others that they can fly by reference but would only do so in an extreme emergency. I guess this could have been...
My experience is that they do not receive too well under heated windshields. Of course this isn't normally a problem in a total electrical failure...
There are several charting options available for additional cost depending what part of the world you fly in.
https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=156
C2J
My experience is that they do not receive too well under heated windshields. Of course this isn't normally a problem in a total electrical failure...
There are several charting options available for additional cost depending what part of the world you fly in.
https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=156
C2J
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Yeah except I can't understand why it's called a ".......Flight Director", as it doesn't have "flight director" functionality! It certainly is much easier to read and interpret though because the instrument cross-scan becomes basically the same as if you were looking at the main instruments, whereas the cross-scan is totally different on the old standbys.
They may well have had displays on the Captain's side and one EICAS screen if the standby inverters were working. It's not clear to me whether they were or not, as the fault was virtually the entire generator control panel/load distribution circuits shorting out. We'll find out in time I guess. And I don't know yet who the crew were so I can't ask anyone who was there!
Wouldn't have helped them if they were a couple of hours away from landing though!
Originally Posted by Capt Fathom
I thought the batteries would power more than those 3 instruments mentioned!
Wouldn't have helped them if they were a couple of hours away from landing though!
Last edited by DutchRoll; 10th Jan 2008 at 00:23.
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Hot Dog
Absolute Bull S#$%$%
If you believe that a glass of water will do it then you are one DANGEROUS operator who should not be let loose within 10 Km of any aircraft.
Any reasonable pilot will be able to fly your glass of water through a complete barrel roll and not spill a drop.
Absolute Bull S#$%$%
If you believe that a glass of water will do it then you are one DANGEROUS operator who should not be let loose within 10 Km of any aircraft.
Any reasonable pilot will be able to fly your glass of water through a complete barrel roll and not spill a drop.
Thread Starter
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enough about water...this thread started out with some thinking this was a non event...well a safe landing resulted...BUT
if this had happened and the plane had been lost we wouldn't even know the cause...spilled water under the pacific ocean wouldn't show up well.
I think the nose down descent may have contributed to the water spill...
I would like to propose that the NEW regs for standby power instrumentation should be FUEL EXHAUSTION PLUS 30 minutes.
if this had happened and the plane had been lost we wouldn't even know the cause...spilled water under the pacific ocean wouldn't show up well.
I think the nose down descent may have contributed to the water spill...
I would like to propose that the NEW regs for standby power instrumentation should be FUEL EXHAUSTION PLUS 30 minutes.
Not sure which post was the best gee-up, HotDog or Milt?
If you get back on the ground without spilling the water, you have achieved your objective! 
Any reasonable pilot will be able to fly your glass of water through a complete barrel roll and not spill a drop
Hand flying
Well now perhaps crew flight checks in the sim could incorporate elements of hand flying skills even though the requirements are likely to be as rare as confirmed alien sightings and hens with teeth. Disable all the instruments requiring power (hopefully airspeed will still be available) and do a few approaches in dodgy but VFR conditions. See if you've got any of the old 'feel' in your flying. A handheld GPS will give an airspeed accurate to within a couple of knots even if there's complete loss of aircraft instruments.
As for IMC with instrument loss, big problem all round but the idea of a military shepherd has merit. Don't know how well a descent through cloud at night could be managed but it's gotta be a better option than nothing.
Has anyone ever done tests on 747s and the like as to stability in cloud? As it is such a stable aircraft in flight, if trimmed in visual conditions for say a 2000fpm descent at 250kts, what is the likelihood of coming out the bottom of the cloud right side up if the controls were left alone and only thrust monitored to keep airspeed within limits?
Doubt we'll see this problem again given the nature of the fault and the publicity. Will make a few systems engineers think twice for future designs though.
As for IMC with instrument loss, big problem all round but the idea of a military shepherd has merit. Don't know how well a descent through cloud at night could be managed but it's gotta be a better option than nothing.
Has anyone ever done tests on 747s and the like as to stability in cloud? As it is such a stable aircraft in flight, if trimmed in visual conditions for say a 2000fpm descent at 250kts, what is the likelihood of coming out the bottom of the cloud right side up if the controls were left alone and only thrust monitored to keep airspeed within limits?
Doubt we'll see this problem again given the nature of the fault and the publicity. Will make a few systems engineers think twice for future designs though.
Paxing All Over The World
sevenstrokeroll
Would the FDR have shown the failure of the generators? It might then be possible to work backwards to what we know happened. Particularly as Qstar said:
S/He said more in post #47 which is one that the senior mgmt at Qantas and Boeing ought to read.
On a lighter note ... in the Daily Mail article referenced earlier, I liked the heading:British holidaymakers' mid-air terror after jumbo jet loses all power Where it later said, "All we were told was that there was a slight power failure after the lights had flickered off and on," said 25-year-old Chloe Washbrook" So, it doesn't sound like they were that terrified.
if this had happened and the plane had been lost we wouldn't even know the cause...spilled water under the pacific ocean wouldn't show up well.
We have blocked drains all over these planes water pours from all the Ice areas on landing. It flows in great amounts from the forward galley from coffee brewers, ice draws and drains. (onto the floor) The economy Galley OMG it some times floods the back of E zone half way down the cabin.
On a lighter note ... in the Daily Mail article referenced earlier, I liked the heading:British holidaymakers' mid-air terror after jumbo jet loses all power Where it later said, "All we were told was that there was a slight power failure after the lights had flickered off and on," said 25-year-old Chloe Washbrook" So, it doesn't sound like they were that terrified.
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Several posters asked if the RAT was standard 747 equipment in reference to that particular case. I am flying the 767300ER and its RAT will only provide hydraulic power to the flight control part of the center system. It has nothing to do with standby electrical power, it is the HDG job (provided you still have hydraulic pressure).
My question is: do some RATs on different types provide direct electrical power backup?
My question is: do some RATs on different types provide direct electrical power backup?
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I thought the batteries would power more than those 3 instruments mentioned! (Capt Fathom)
I think that you are correct there. Acc my manual the main standby bus and the apu standby bus remain powered by their respective batteries for at least 30 mins. The main standby bus powers (among other things) the left EIU, left CDU, left ILS, left VOR, various flight control components, left ADC, left EFIS control panel, and the primary EICAS display.
I think that you are correct there. Acc my manual the main standby bus and the apu standby bus remain powered by their respective batteries for at least 30 mins. The main standby bus powers (among other things) the left EIU, left CDU, left ILS, left VOR, various flight control components, left ADC, left EFIS control panel, and the primary EICAS display.
The Reverend
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Any reasonable pilot will be able to fly your glass of water through a complete barrel roll and not spill a drop.
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Is there a battery or battery-bus controller/disconnector ??
Could the batteries have been thrown offline ??
How far would the battery controller, if it exists, be from the generator controllers ??
.
Could the batteries have been thrown offline ??
How far would the battery controller, if it exists, be from the generator controllers ??
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Milt
There's a lot of hate in the world...
Sounds like all your aerobatics have affected your stability.
Whilst we all feel like a barrel roll from time to time, a 744 over the oggie at night with nothing on the TV is probably not one of those times. I would go with the glass of water or a ruler on the finger over nothing.
Glass of water, BEX and a good lie down is what I would suggest.
There's a lot of hate in the world...
Sounds like all your aerobatics have affected your stability.
Whilst we all feel like a barrel roll from time to time, a 744 over the oggie at night with nothing on the TV is probably not one of those times. I would go with the glass of water or a ruler on the finger over nothing.
Glass of water, BEX and a good lie down is what I would suggest.