A late-ish stabilisation
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FullWings, oddly enough I guess the visual pattern and any modification thereof is a relative challenge, I guess they've just been so basic and so natural for so long that its hard to relate to the "wham bam certify me ma'am" crowd. That said, did I mention they were "basic"?
Relative inexperience is being supported by modern technology AND the "real pilot" skills mainly possessed by the older crowd raised in a different aviation environment. Unless something changes in the mix, the fatality statistics will increase as the pre-flightdeck manager era pilot retires. Maybe the automation will improve enough to better justify the deterioration of the pay and the skills of the modern flightdeck manager, I guess we shall all see. (Well most of us, some of us are going to die first.)
Relative inexperience is being supported by modern technology AND the "real pilot" skills mainly possessed by the older crowd raised in a different aviation environment. Unless something changes in the mix, the fatality statistics will increase as the pre-flightdeck manager era pilot retires. Maybe the automation will improve enough to better justify the deterioration of the pay and the skills of the modern flightdeck manager, I guess we shall all see. (Well most of us, some of us are going to die first.)
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All this said, there is no more fun than an L1011 and a Canarsie on the right side...
Ahh Canasty, a true test of pilot skills. But the L-10 made it easy.
Yessir...and in an '8 -63 series as well but that was real work! There's only a couple of other ways to have more fun, one of them being in an airplane (I am told...never done it), skimming through the Alps or parts of Arizona...
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Ol' HUCK's got it perfect!!!
Been there, done that, and got the T-shirt. Way back, when WE flew the kite and things went wrong, handling the A/C was no problem and you could always get in knowing you knew and could fly to the limits if need be. BUT today, imagine getting that bad gust, strong x-wind, etc, without the regular hands-on practice !!!! maybe I was a naughty boy like Huck, but it sure has paid off on many occasions.
Wiley
Wiley
Any pilot should be capable of flying manually to and from the cruising level equal to the standard that the autopilot produces.
People who insist on hand flying in a busy TMA are a pain in the butt.
The PNH is working like a one-armed paper-hanger whilst the PH is doing sod all but follow the director. Monitoring, accuracy and safety are degraded.
Why do most respectable majors suggest that the automatics are used? May I suggest because the vast majority of their experienced training captains know that this is the safe way to operate a public transport aircraft.
If you want to be a prima donna then either spend some extra time in the sim or hire an aeroplane; either way you are not compromising the security of a passenger flight.
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If you want to be a prima donna then either spend some extra time in the sim or hire an aeroplane; either way you are not compromising the security of a passenger flight.
Now you wish you had been practising 'hands on' as you now have a VERY steep learning curve and are ' compromising the security of a passenger flight' because you are out of practise.
Practise when the time is right, as for turning finals at 200'.........err I don't think so.
pj2:
I couldn't agree more; a few months before I retired, I did 5 sectors one night without an autopilot or flight directors. Neither were required as per the MEL.
I can also remember flying one of Fred's DC-10s from LGW to LAX without a working autopilot.
I can't see that happening nowadays. Some of them have forgotten how to fly or so it would appear.
I couldn't agree more; a few months before I retired, I did 5 sectors one night without an autopilot or flight directors. Neither were required as per the MEL.
I can also remember flying one of Fred's DC-10s from LGW to LAX without a working autopilot.
I can't see that happening nowadays. Some of them have forgotten how to fly or so it would appear.
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Does that mean that a working autopilot is required per some carriers' dispatch rules?
With the ever more precise GPS centreline navigation and reduced vertical separation minima, you require the accuracy that your autopilot provides.
In the "olden days" I'm sure it was a lot easier to handle the heavy jets. You know when, the was nowhere near as much traffic at the major airports, navigation was by VOR or, heavens forbid, NDB.
When push comes to shove, we are all examined in our proficiency to handle a visual circuit just in case we have no other option. Flying a descent from cruise to circuit height is not that much of a challenge either. However, once inside the radar vectoring area of somewhere like JFK or LHR, the workload increases exponentially. Anyone hand flying a heavy in that environment "for fun" needs their head examined.
A hand flown visual circuit to a relatively quiet Caribbean island is a different matter. We all know that 411A believes he is a flying god but his days are over and the era that he flew in is just that... another era!
basil,
There is some subtlety in the discussion which does not lend itself to portrayals of the argument in "either/or polarities. I don't think many here equate hand-flying with primadonna-ness or macho-hero flying. Clearly, there are circumstances where competent hand-flying skills are required and I think the argument has been sufficiently made now for a balance between the two on an as-appropriate basis. I doubt very much whether anyone here who is a professional airline pilot would counter by saying automated airplanes should be hand-flown in busy terminals just for the practise.
In short, those who rely solely upon automation with minimal practise at and who eschew hand-flying at appropriate times as passé and unneccessary are in my view perhaps "compromising the security of a passenger flight" albeit on arguably rare occasions which are almost always associated either with MEL issues or with abnormalities which developed enroute.
Let me argue the case for appropriate hand-flying skills further: I know from personal experience that hand-flying skills on an A330 came in exeedingly handy on an aircraft compromised by a hydraulic failure with a possible loss of a second (out of 3, - enroute), manual thrust levers (MEL'd), partial/slow flaps (due hyd failure which also led to alternate braking, free-falling the gear, no reverser on one side and no nose-wheel steering). The requirements of completing the flight without result illustrated far more clearly than any discussion on the matter, that hand-flying skills both have their place in training syllabi and in practical application and in this case were a contribution to the safety of the flight. Having seen the results of competent hand-flying in an abnormal circumstance in an extremely sophisticated autoflight design, there are no arguments which can convince otherwise of the necessity to mandate hand-flying as part of a training curriculum.
I use this example purely as an illustration that the full toolkit includes fully-manual-to-fully-automated-flight skills, nothing more, nothing less. When used intelligently and with training and supported by company policies of appropriate levels of manual and managed flight, hand-flying has it's place and should be both trained and practised regularly. This does not preclude nor de-emphasize the primary means of flying today's airliners and that is using the autoflight/FMC systems to full advantage.
If you want to be a prima donna then either spend some extra time in the sim or hire an aeroplane; either way you are not compromising the security of a passenger flight.
In short, those who rely solely upon automation with minimal practise at and who eschew hand-flying at appropriate times as passé and unneccessary are in my view perhaps "compromising the security of a passenger flight" albeit on arguably rare occasions which are almost always associated either with MEL issues or with abnormalities which developed enroute.
Let me argue the case for appropriate hand-flying skills further: I know from personal experience that hand-flying skills on an A330 came in exeedingly handy on an aircraft compromised by a hydraulic failure with a possible loss of a second (out of 3, - enroute), manual thrust levers (MEL'd), partial/slow flaps (due hyd failure which also led to alternate braking, free-falling the gear, no reverser on one side and no nose-wheel steering). The requirements of completing the flight without result illustrated far more clearly than any discussion on the matter, that hand-flying skills both have their place in training syllabi and in practical application and in this case were a contribution to the safety of the flight. Having seen the results of competent hand-flying in an abnormal circumstance in an extremely sophisticated autoflight design, there are no arguments which can convince otherwise of the necessity to mandate hand-flying as part of a training curriculum.
I use this example purely as an illustration that the full toolkit includes fully-manual-to-fully-automated-flight skills, nothing more, nothing less. When used intelligently and with training and supported by company policies of appropriate levels of manual and managed flight, hand-flying has it's place and should be both trained and practised regularly. This does not preclude nor de-emphasize the primary means of flying today's airliners and that is using the autoflight/FMC systems to full advantage.
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In the "olden days" I'm sure it was a lot easier to handle the heavy jets. You know when, the was nowhere near as much traffic at the major airports, navigation was by VOR or, heavens forbid, NDB.
When push comes to shove, we are all examined in our proficiency to handle a visual circuit just in case we have no other option. Flying a descent from cruise to circuit height is not that much of a challenge either. However, once inside the radar vectoring area of somewhere like JFK or LHR, the workload increases exponentially. Anyone hand flying a heavy in that environment "for fun" needs their head examined.
A hand flown visual circuit to a relatively quiet Caribbean island is a different matter. We all know that 411A believes he is a flying god but his days are over and the era that he flew in is just that... another era!
When push comes to shove, we are all examined in our proficiency to handle a visual circuit just in case we have no other option. Flying a descent from cruise to circuit height is not that much of a challenge either. However, once inside the radar vectoring area of somewhere like JFK or LHR, the workload increases exponentially. Anyone hand flying a heavy in that environment "for fun" needs their head examined.
A hand flown visual circuit to a relatively quiet Caribbean island is a different matter. We all know that 411A believes he is a flying god but his days are over and the era that he flew in is just that... another era!
I am curious, exactly where is the flying pilot's attention when you are in this busy terminal environment, and does your aircraft type still require the designation of a "flying pilot"? I know in my aircraft we are required to designate a "flying pilot" and he is supposed to dedicate his attention to aircraft control. It doesn't normally much matter whether the autopilot is ON or OFF as the flying pilot's attention must be acutely focused on the aircraft and the surrounding airspace. The briefings and preparation were done before reaching the terminal environment and we are down to simply one pilot at the controls and one pilot at the radios and supporting the flying pilot. How do YOU do it?
I've noticed that not one damn thing has changed in the last 28 years with regard to the fact that at least one guy must dedicate his attention to the aircraft and its control when in your (busy) terminal environments. Autopilot ON or OFF changes exactly NOTHING of where a good pilot's attention is SUPPOSED to be at this time. It used to be that the autopilot served to relieve some workload from the fatigued pilot, now it sounds like it serves to replace lost (or never had) competency. You may not understand how its possible to effectively and safely fly an aircraft in to JFK or LHR but rest assured it is for some of us even if its fewer and fewer every day. Understand this: just as its true that modern automation is relaxing the daily necessity of what you call the pilot skills of a bygone era, that era actually is not gone yet and those pilots with those skills are better and safer pilots than you. In other words, fortunately for the flying public modern automation is picking up your slack while its only backing up the pilots you think come from another era. We are safe without an autopilot and safer with it, you are only safe with it, correct?
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People who insist on hand flying in a busy TMA are a pain in the butt.
The PNH is working like a one-armed paper-hanger whilst the PH is doing sod all but follow the director. Monitoring, accuracy and safety are degraded.
The PNH is working like a one-armed paper-hanger whilst the PH is doing sod all but follow the director. Monitoring, accuracy and safety are degraded.
Hmmm, how strange.
In my aeroplane, as the flying pilot flying manually, make all the necessary flight director/heading changes, with the exception of the altitude alert...only because it is way across the glareshield panel.
It would appear that many here, being shall we say, unseasoned, fail to realise that in years gone past, each individual pilot had to make his own selections (shock..horror!) as there was no 'central' way of doing so.
In the "olden days" I'm sure it was a lot easier to handle the heavy jets. You know when, the was nowhere near as much traffic at the major airports, navigation was by VOR or, heavens forbid, NDB.
Not his fault, just not been around long enough.
Some of them have forgotten how to fly or so it would appear.
And, whose fault is this?
The specific airlines training department, that's who.
Lowest common denominator, again.
Instead of training properly, train to the lowest barely acceptable standard.
What a shame.
411A,
The majors for whom I've flown require MCP selections to be made by PNF when the aircraft is being hand flown by PF so, for them, it would be a breach of SOPs to make one's own selections.
The IGS at Kai Tak had to be hand flown from the start of the turn; Ovda (757) and Sumburgh (VC8) and other places where we flew a circling approach, yes, even in the big jumbo were hand flown Some serious combinations of structural damage and engine failure in the sim had to be hand flown.
The only time I've seen all the main tyres burst was when my captain decided to ignore SOPs and hand fly on a dark and dirty night. Perhaps, as some of you say, he should have had more practice
the flying pilot flying manually, make all the necessary flight director/heading changes, with the exception of the altitude alert...only because it is way across the glareshield panel.
The IGS at Kai Tak had to be hand flown from the start of the turn; Ovda (757) and Sumburgh (VC8) and other places where we flew a circling approach, yes, even in the big jumbo were hand flown Some serious combinations of structural damage and engine failure in the sim had to be hand flown.
The only time I've seen all the main tyres burst was when my captain decided to ignore SOPs and hand fly on a dark and dirty night. Perhaps, as some of you say, he should have had more practice
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I was stationary at the holding point perhaps 200 meters away, my TCAS was in TA/RA and showed it as a yellow circle with +100ft appended
Regards,
DFC
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Oh come on 411A. You really should try to get with the times, even in your geriatric state.
I'm sure that if Ernest K Gann were around today and he were listening to your perpetual put downs and bragging of how good you were, he'd be doing the same to you.
Things change and technology advances. You retired from airline flying, how long ago? Exactly!
I have no doubt that the ratio of cr@p pilots to Supremo's like you is still exactly the same. The problem with you is that you just can't help yourself by taking derogatory snipes whilst blowing an old and faded trumpet.
Get over it. You had your era. You are now an old f@rt with a lot of hours in some classic aeroplanes. Today's pilots, young and old (like me) are more than capable of handling our modern, highly computerised and automated jets both manually and with the autopilots.
The main difference is that, unlike you, we have evolved. The evolution is in SOP's and better understanding. The proof is in the accident rate. In your era it was much worse than it is now. In EKG's era it was worse than yours.
It is comments about how you single handed used to set your own MCP whilst hand flying that show how out of touch with modern aviation you really are. SOP's at just about every major western carrier now dictate that the PNF operates the MCP and everything else whilst the PF does just that, flies the aircraft. The notion of 411A being the macho heavy jet pilot hand flying through CB's whilst manoeuvring for an approach to a busy parallel approach and reaching out to set his own MCP is, today, frowned upon. Why? Because lessons learnt over the decades show that it is safer to have the PNF make those changes and for the PF to concentrate 100% on flying.
So 411A, try taking off the condescension hat and just tell us the stories without the sad throws of a geriatric who hasn't figured out that times have changed and everything progresses and changes, invariably for the better.
I'm off to fly my B744. I think I'll hand fly to cruise level today. Then again, I may not and I may decide to practice my use of the automatics. Choices, choices!
I'm sure that if Ernest K Gann were around today and he were listening to your perpetual put downs and bragging of how good you were, he'd be doing the same to you.
Things change and technology advances. You retired from airline flying, how long ago? Exactly!
I have no doubt that the ratio of cr@p pilots to Supremo's like you is still exactly the same. The problem with you is that you just can't help yourself by taking derogatory snipes whilst blowing an old and faded trumpet.
Get over it. You had your era. You are now an old f@rt with a lot of hours in some classic aeroplanes. Today's pilots, young and old (like me) are more than capable of handling our modern, highly computerised and automated jets both manually and with the autopilots.
The main difference is that, unlike you, we have evolved. The evolution is in SOP's and better understanding. The proof is in the accident rate. In your era it was much worse than it is now. In EKG's era it was worse than yours.
It is comments about how you single handed used to set your own MCP whilst hand flying that show how out of touch with modern aviation you really are. SOP's at just about every major western carrier now dictate that the PNF operates the MCP and everything else whilst the PF does just that, flies the aircraft. The notion of 411A being the macho heavy jet pilot hand flying through CB's whilst manoeuvring for an approach to a busy parallel approach and reaching out to set his own MCP is, today, frowned upon. Why? Because lessons learnt over the decades show that it is safer to have the PNF make those changes and for the PF to concentrate 100% on flying.
So 411A, try taking off the condescension hat and just tell us the stories without the sad throws of a geriatric who hasn't figured out that times have changed and everything progresses and changes, invariably for the better.
I'm off to fly my B744. I think I'll hand fly to cruise level today. Then again, I may not and I may decide to practice my use of the automatics. Choices, choices!
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You retired from airline flying, how long ago? Exactly!
And, strangly enough, I know quite a few older pilots that share my opinions, exactly.
Sorry to disappoint...
Well, I most certainly do not teach pilots to be one-armed bandits nor is that the way things are laid down in our SOPs. When the automatics are engaged then the PF should programme the MCP. When hand flying then the PNF should programme the MCP.
Let me tell you that not everyone in Arizona is a one-armed bandit. I have trained many young men who have come out of the SABENA Academy at Scottsdale and they have all been very good.
I think we just have to be grateful that the chances of having to share the sky with an L1011 driven by the ancient mariner is so small as to be almost negligible.
Having said that, programming the MCP and doing the radio at the same time is hardly arduous for the PNF and certainly is not exactly what I would call demanding.
Let me tell you that not everyone in Arizona is a one-armed bandit. I have trained many young men who have come out of the SABENA Academy at Scottsdale and they have all been very good.
I think we just have to be grateful that the chances of having to share the sky with an L1011 driven by the ancient mariner is so small as to be almost negligible.
Having said that, programming the MCP and doing the radio at the same time is hardly arduous for the PNF and certainly is not exactly what I would call demanding.