Its time for Chris Darke to go!
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XFO1-11,
I sense a conspiracy brewing. Please enlighten us all as to the details of our Gen Sec's holiday. Was it in BGI at BA's expense? Or in the company of certain BA managers?
Perhaps a "secure" posting on the BA forum for the answers please?
I sense a conspiracy brewing. Please enlighten us all as to the details of our Gen Sec's holiday. Was it in BGI at BA's expense? Or in the company of certain BA managers?
Perhaps a "secure" posting on the BA forum for the answers please?
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Dr Tre,
The motion you refer to was removed by management because everything posted on BA premises requires their approval prior to being put up. The motion to evaluate a more formal link between Balpa and US Alpa did receive more than enough backing from members. The will now go before the ADC in November. Whether it passes at the ADC is up to the reps of all the company councils.
Hot Wings,
I will not print the details until I have confirmation in writing. I`m working on that! However in the mean time you could just ask as I did.
I would like to ask any Virgin or Britannia pilots out there a question. Prior to Balpa offering you their recommended pay deal did they inform you of the change in law last year that allows you to protective strike for up to eight weeks without being dismissed? Just curious whether you were given all the facts before being asked to decide.
The motion you refer to was removed by management because everything posted on BA premises requires their approval prior to being put up. The motion to evaluate a more formal link between Balpa and US Alpa did receive more than enough backing from members. The will now go before the ADC in November. Whether it passes at the ADC is up to the reps of all the company councils.
Hot Wings,
I will not print the details until I have confirmation in writing. I`m working on that! However in the mean time you could just ask as I did.
I would like to ask any Virgin or Britannia pilots out there a question. Prior to Balpa offering you their recommended pay deal did they inform you of the change in law last year that allows you to protective strike for up to eight weeks without being dismissed? Just curious whether you were given all the facts before being asked to decide.
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The disgraced manager of a well known airline who is trying to introduce BEA methods into a Gulf airline used to think that, in the main, pilots were not that bright. Having read 4 pages of this thread, for the first time in my career, I think I agree with him!
CD does not run the lives of balpa members. He does not control the NEC; he does not control the CCs. He does give guidance to the NEC which is composed of members from different companies but it is up to them whether it is accepted or not. The NEC controls his salary which was increased to compensate for reduced pension arrangements.
He does not make industrial agreements with any airline - the company reps do that, having taken into account what their colleagues tell them. If XX CC accepts y%, then it is because they are convinced that no more is available without all pilots taking action.
This is THE point. If all pilots in a company were members of balpa AND were willing to take indefinite strike action, then they would be able to markedly improve their T&Cs but only if the company could afford in the long run to pay an increased salary bill.
I have no doubt that Emerald pilots work harder than BA 744 pilots and therefore deserve a higher salary than BA pilots but can Emerald afford it? This is what I interpret about 'unrealistic' and reality - ie, if an airline can withstand a huge salary increase AND the entire pilot community is willing to go on strike, then the expectations are realisitc [read the entire quoted paragraph]. If one or neither is achievable, then they are quite unrealistic. How many British 'Regional' pilots are willing to remain on strile for 8 weeks as the UC Comair pilots have?
A Balpa notice board is for communications from the reps to their colleagues, not for trying to drum up support for a petition! US Alpa has members who have a totally differnt culture - MONEY - and attitude to industrial relations - STRIKE - to their British counterparts. Industrial Law is totally different in both countries. Anyone who thinks that if Balpa strengthen ties with 'IFALPA' (sic) it would generate US salaries in the UK is mistaken.
The IPA was born out of the collapse of Dan Air. Those not retained by Dan (BA) have retained a bitterness for balpa who they believe let them down - (a view not shared by all ex Dan pilots however) - this should be remembered. In trying to set up a 'Union' with bargaining rights, nothing would give them more pleasure than to have a divided pilot community which would weaken us all.
My point? I do not ask what I get out of my membership of Balpa. I give my 1% willingly, as well as my opinions to my reps. I give them my support.
CD does not run the lives of balpa members. He does not control the NEC; he does not control the CCs. He does give guidance to the NEC which is composed of members from different companies but it is up to them whether it is accepted or not. The NEC controls his salary which was increased to compensate for reduced pension arrangements.
He does not make industrial agreements with any airline - the company reps do that, having taken into account what their colleagues tell them. If XX CC accepts y%, then it is because they are convinced that no more is available without all pilots taking action.
This is THE point. If all pilots in a company were members of balpa AND were willing to take indefinite strike action, then they would be able to markedly improve their T&Cs but only if the company could afford in the long run to pay an increased salary bill.
I have no doubt that Emerald pilots work harder than BA 744 pilots and therefore deserve a higher salary than BA pilots but can Emerald afford it? This is what I interpret about 'unrealistic' and reality - ie, if an airline can withstand a huge salary increase AND the entire pilot community is willing to go on strike, then the expectations are realisitc [read the entire quoted paragraph]. If one or neither is achievable, then they are quite unrealistic. How many British 'Regional' pilots are willing to remain on strile for 8 weeks as the UC Comair pilots have?
A Balpa notice board is for communications from the reps to their colleagues, not for trying to drum up support for a petition! US Alpa has members who have a totally differnt culture - MONEY - and attitude to industrial relations - STRIKE - to their British counterparts. Industrial Law is totally different in both countries. Anyone who thinks that if Balpa strengthen ties with 'IFALPA' (sic) it would generate US salaries in the UK is mistaken.
The IPA was born out of the collapse of Dan Air. Those not retained by Dan (BA) have retained a bitterness for balpa who they believe let them down - (a view not shared by all ex Dan pilots however) - this should be remembered. In trying to set up a 'Union' with bargaining rights, nothing would give them more pleasure than to have a divided pilot community which would weaken us all.
My point? I do not ask what I get out of my membership of Balpa. I give my 1% willingly, as well as my opinions to my reps. I give them my support.
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Here is an email I received recently from Mr Darke. I hope it goes some way to allaying your fears of a conspiratorial nature and more importantly, it confounds any accusations of his failure to respond to emails. I sent him a message 2 days ago and this was received a day later.
Dear Mr (Picus),
Thank you for your comments and I will try to respond to all of them.
Firstly let me say that your elected representatives in BA are engaged in a very detailed preparation of the pay claim. This started over a month ago and it is the first time ever, that such detailed advanced preparation has taken place. There will be an announcement soon about some members consultative meetings to give you and your colleagues an opportunity to make input into the final structure of the claim. In the end the content of the claim will be decide by you and you’re elected representatives.
As to your comment on membership, the NEC and I do not care more about raising membership than we do about the pay terms and conditions of flight crew. In each case we seek to represent the wish of the membership. In my last LOG article I tried to point out how low paid unorganised flight crew pose a threat to highly organised and better-paid flight crew, just that nothing more. It would be absolute folly not to have a deep interest and commitment to our membership in BA and the other companies where we have been organised for many years; I can assure you we do.
The outcome of negotiations and what the members do accept or not as the case may be is not decided by me but by the members. In most cases a pay offer is subject to a ballot of the membership in the company concerned. If you are referring to the last two-year deal in BA then I tend to agree with you that at the time the membership should have been given the opportunity to vote on the deal. But your reprehensive at the time decided, and they had the right to do so, not to after holding a number of members meetings where there was no strong feelings voiced to have a ballot. The company at the time you will remember was at a low ebb.
In the end you considering everything will judge what comes out of the negotiations later this year. I have at this stage no idea what the company are thinking. I expect like you and me they will be watching closely what's happening in Lufthansa and what has happened and is happening in the US will not be lost on them.
Yes I too hope you and I can be proud of what ever the settlement is in BA and a lot of flight crew in other operators will be watching things closely as well. It is true to say that a lot of futures depend on the outcome.
I hope that covers the points and perhaps I will see you at one of the meetings.
Calling for resignations at what I believe is a potentially highly productive era (Apologies to Virgin et al) but solidarity is the only weapon BALPA has at this moment in time. I agree with most posts on this thread but to call for Chris Darkes resignation now would be counter productive.
BALPA have appeared pally with management primarily because we, the members, have become complacent. Start sending your emails and you will discover that the power of "petition" will provide the confidence for our elected representatives to be more bullish and less conciliatory.
Just look at what's happened to the Conservative party if you feel that calling for our leaders resignation is an option worth exercising.
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Magnus
Dear Mr (Picus),
Thank you for your comments and I will try to respond to all of them.
Firstly let me say that your elected representatives in BA are engaged in a very detailed preparation of the pay claim. This started over a month ago and it is the first time ever, that such detailed advanced preparation has taken place. There will be an announcement soon about some members consultative meetings to give you and your colleagues an opportunity to make input into the final structure of the claim. In the end the content of the claim will be decide by you and you’re elected representatives.
As to your comment on membership, the NEC and I do not care more about raising membership than we do about the pay terms and conditions of flight crew. In each case we seek to represent the wish of the membership. In my last LOG article I tried to point out how low paid unorganised flight crew pose a threat to highly organised and better-paid flight crew, just that nothing more. It would be absolute folly not to have a deep interest and commitment to our membership in BA and the other companies where we have been organised for many years; I can assure you we do.
The outcome of negotiations and what the members do accept or not as the case may be is not decided by me but by the members. In most cases a pay offer is subject to a ballot of the membership in the company concerned. If you are referring to the last two-year deal in BA then I tend to agree with you that at the time the membership should have been given the opportunity to vote on the deal. But your reprehensive at the time decided, and they had the right to do so, not to after holding a number of members meetings where there was no strong feelings voiced to have a ballot. The company at the time you will remember was at a low ebb.
In the end you considering everything will judge what comes out of the negotiations later this year. I have at this stage no idea what the company are thinking. I expect like you and me they will be watching closely what's happening in Lufthansa and what has happened and is happening in the US will not be lost on them.
Yes I too hope you and I can be proud of what ever the settlement is in BA and a lot of flight crew in other operators will be watching things closely as well. It is true to say that a lot of futures depend on the outcome.
I hope that covers the points and perhaps I will see you at one of the meetings.
Calling for resignations at what I believe is a potentially highly productive era (Apologies to Virgin et al) but solidarity is the only weapon BALPA has at this moment in time. I agree with most posts on this thread but to call for Chris Darkes resignation now would be counter productive.
BALPA have appeared pally with management primarily because we, the members, have become complacent. Start sending your emails and you will discover that the power of "petition" will provide the confidence for our elected representatives to be more bullish and less conciliatory.
Just look at what's happened to the Conservative party if you feel that calling for our leaders resignation is an option worth exercising.
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Magnus
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Magnus - thanks for posting the reply from CD. I like your comparison with the Tories. They have lost the election before it has even warmed up. If they had changed leadership months ago perhaps they would have a chance of winning.
I agree in the power of petition and in solidarity but is it really asking too much for CD not to undermine our pay negotiations at BA before they have even started?
I agree in the power of petition and in solidarity but is it really asking too much for CD not to undermine our pay negotiations at BA before they have even started?
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I apologise if I am commenting out of place, but I have a couple of questions;
In the e-mail to Magnus Picus, Mr Darke sees low paid unorganised flight crew as a threat to the likes of BA pay deals. If this is the case what are BALPA (or even the IPA) doing about this? Is there anything that BALPA are currently organising for aspiring professional aircrew such as myself?
From the tone of the e-mail I get the impression that BALPA will only fight the corner of those pilots that work for large airlines and see the rest of the aircrew workforce as an irritant that won't get itself organised. If BALPA are to be a representive organisation, why do they not try to attract those of us that are about to start or are in the throws of training? Surely if us new boys have some contact with BALPA at an early stage in our flying career, and can see that they will look after us and our interests, we are likely to stick with it throughout our time as paid pilots?
If I am being naeive or talking out of turn, let me know and I will quietly slide back to Wannabes
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">In my last LOG article I tried to point out how low paid unorganised flight crew pose a threat to highly organised and better-paid flight crew, just that nothing more. It would be absolute folly not to have a deep interest and commitment to our membership in BA and the other companies where we have been organised for many years</font>
From the tone of the e-mail I get the impression that BALPA will only fight the corner of those pilots that work for large airlines and see the rest of the aircrew workforce as an irritant that won't get itself organised. If BALPA are to be a representive organisation, why do they not try to attract those of us that are about to start or are in the throws of training? Surely if us new boys have some contact with BALPA at an early stage in our flying career, and can see that they will look after us and our interests, we are likely to stick with it throughout our time as paid pilots?
If I am being naeive or talking out of turn, let me know and I will quietly slide back to Wannabes
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I have read the above thread with interest.
I hear a lot of complaints about what B.A.L.P.A, don't do for us.
It really comes down to the fact that 75% of working pilot's won't stand up and fight. By that I mean strike.
That's what the train drivers did. They won.
In the company I work for, the only way to stir the membership up seems to be to threaten the pension.
At a recent members meeting, CD stood up and said as much.
We have rejected one pay deal, the new "tweaked" deal is now published. It's cr@p. The management don't need to give more. The way the vote is, we've got nothing to threaten them with.
It will go through. Why, because all we pilots ever do is whinge, we don't have the stomach for a fight and the management know this.
Because of this, we hamstring our negotiators right from the start.
WE, are our worst enemy. Bluff only works once. (maybe)
Don't "talk the talk, if you can't walk the walk".
From my perspective, we in the UK are all bluff.
No disrespect intended towards any of the posts on this thread.
If it means that much to you all. Back up your CC and give them some real clout next time. This year's done already.
Fly safe.
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Stay cool, stay longer.
I hear a lot of complaints about what B.A.L.P.A, don't do for us.
It really comes down to the fact that 75% of working pilot's won't stand up and fight. By that I mean strike.
That's what the train drivers did. They won.
In the company I work for, the only way to stir the membership up seems to be to threaten the pension.
At a recent members meeting, CD stood up and said as much.
We have rejected one pay deal, the new "tweaked" deal is now published. It's cr@p. The management don't need to give more. The way the vote is, we've got nothing to threaten them with.
It will go through. Why, because all we pilots ever do is whinge, we don't have the stomach for a fight and the management know this.
Because of this, we hamstring our negotiators right from the start.
WE, are our worst enemy. Bluff only works once. (maybe)
Don't "talk the talk, if you can't walk the walk".
From my perspective, we in the UK are all bluff.
No disrespect intended towards any of the posts on this thread.
If it means that much to you all. Back up your CC and give them some real clout next time. This year's done already.
Fly safe.
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Stay cool, stay longer.
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Ticker,
The law changed 24th April 2000, over one year ago. It changed to the extent that you can now protected strike for up to eight weeks before the company can dismiss you, additionally if Balpa follow the rules then the threat of a company pursuing any striker for loss of profit is removed. Now I am not saying that this information would have made any difference to the outcome of your ballet, but I do think that given the law changed over a year ago that you should have been fully informed prior to starting negotiations.
Next in Line,
I am pleased that the concerns expressed by the members in this thread have increased your sense of superiority. It is always nice to make someone happy! I see you managed to get a dig at our colleagues in America as well. What a splendid day this must be for you. The fact that US Alpa is responsible for some of the best rates in the industry, is financially sound and in fact pays Comair Pilots part of their salaries whilst on strike, seems to escape you. A scenario not available to us due to lack of money. We do however agree on the point that we should support our reps. You couldn’t nip next door and tell Chris to do the same could you?
Magnus,
Its good to know that he is replying to some emails. Both the ones I sent have not been, what’s your secret? I agree with you on the point of solidarity with our reps, they have done a lot of work on our behalf. That however does not extend to Darke. Getting rid of him would improve the position of every Company Council in Balpa to achieve a better deal for their members. I believe Hot Wings reply sums it up!
The law changed 24th April 2000, over one year ago. It changed to the extent that you can now protected strike for up to eight weeks before the company can dismiss you, additionally if Balpa follow the rules then the threat of a company pursuing any striker for loss of profit is removed. Now I am not saying that this information would have made any difference to the outcome of your ballet, but I do think that given the law changed over a year ago that you should have been fully informed prior to starting negotiations.
Next in Line,
I am pleased that the concerns expressed by the members in this thread have increased your sense of superiority. It is always nice to make someone happy! I see you managed to get a dig at our colleagues in America as well. What a splendid day this must be for you. The fact that US Alpa is responsible for some of the best rates in the industry, is financially sound and in fact pays Comair Pilots part of their salaries whilst on strike, seems to escape you. A scenario not available to us due to lack of money. We do however agree on the point that we should support our reps. You couldn’t nip next door and tell Chris to do the same could you?
Magnus,
Its good to know that he is replying to some emails. Both the ones I sent have not been, what’s your secret? I agree with you on the point of solidarity with our reps, they have done a lot of work on our behalf. That however does not extend to Darke. Getting rid of him would improve the position of every Company Council in Balpa to achieve a better deal for their members. I believe Hot Wings reply sums it up!
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heretic,
I cannot provide you with a link as the discussion on the topic occurred on the Balpa/BA CompuServe forum. It came to light after a private member asked what Balpa's take was on the new law. It then became apparent that Balpa didn't have a take! Pat Lawrence, one of the BACC reps, got his teeth into it and had the law evaluated on our behalf. It is now Balpa's stated position and Pat gave permission for its quotation to other members. When Head Office where asked why they had not evaluated the law and informed the members they stated they would have done prior to negotiations taking place. However if both Virgin and Britannia CC's were unaware of the now year old change then I would doubt the BACC would have faired any better. In which case we all end up negotiating without realizing that two of the biggest blocks to striking have been removed. Being Sacked and Sued. Most pilots like to be kept informed and make their own evaluations and decisions, it’s a healthy attitude for the job we do but apparently Head Office disagrees! It is certainly information you required before voting on marginal offers.
Regards,
XFO1-11
Here is the Balpa stated position.
Here is the authoritative response to the legal aspects of your questions. Feel free to quote them in the context of the general reply I gave you on PPrune.
Re: Legal Aspects of a Strike
The following legal propositions would seem to be relevant to the issues raised:
1. The general rule has, for many years, been that an employer may dismiss employees who take part in an official strike, provided that all of the relevant employees are dismissed and that none are re-engaged within a 3 month period. These provisions have been modified recently, such that there is now protection given during the first 8 weeks of an industrial dispute. After the 8 week period is over, the employer may dismiss striking employees provided the employer can show it has taken reasonable procedural steps to resolve the dispute. The remedy for an employee dismissed for taking part in the strike during the protected period is a normal claim for unfair dismissal. That is to say, it is subject to the usual statutory limits on compensation and the restricted nature of the remedies for re-instatement and re-engagement.
2. A strike is normally a breach of contract unless the contract has already been determined on giving proper notice to terminate. Thus, if the notice to commence the strike was for full contractual notice (3 months) and was appropriately phrased, the employer would have no remedy in damages against the individual employee. If full notice is not given, then it is a somewhat open question as to how any losses claimed by the employer would be calculated. If the strike was called by BALPA without following the appropriate statutory procedural requirements, then the employer could make a claim for damages against BALPA.
3. While I am sure that BA would look very closely at BALPA's procedures in calling industrial action, if the procedures are followed carefully, there is no particular risk involved.
4. The position of those who go sick when a strike is taking place is quite difficult. If the Courts take the view that individuals would have taken part in the action if not sick, then they will be deemed to have taken part in the action.
Best wishes Pat Lawrence (C747/BACC/LHLC
I cannot provide you with a link as the discussion on the topic occurred on the Balpa/BA CompuServe forum. It came to light after a private member asked what Balpa's take was on the new law. It then became apparent that Balpa didn't have a take! Pat Lawrence, one of the BACC reps, got his teeth into it and had the law evaluated on our behalf. It is now Balpa's stated position and Pat gave permission for its quotation to other members. When Head Office where asked why they had not evaluated the law and informed the members they stated they would have done prior to negotiations taking place. However if both Virgin and Britannia CC's were unaware of the now year old change then I would doubt the BACC would have faired any better. In which case we all end up negotiating without realizing that two of the biggest blocks to striking have been removed. Being Sacked and Sued. Most pilots like to be kept informed and make their own evaluations and decisions, it’s a healthy attitude for the job we do but apparently Head Office disagrees! It is certainly information you required before voting on marginal offers.
Regards,
XFO1-11
Here is the Balpa stated position.
Here is the authoritative response to the legal aspects of your questions. Feel free to quote them in the context of the general reply I gave you on PPrune.
Re: Legal Aspects of a Strike
The following legal propositions would seem to be relevant to the issues raised:
1. The general rule has, for many years, been that an employer may dismiss employees who take part in an official strike, provided that all of the relevant employees are dismissed and that none are re-engaged within a 3 month period. These provisions have been modified recently, such that there is now protection given during the first 8 weeks of an industrial dispute. After the 8 week period is over, the employer may dismiss striking employees provided the employer can show it has taken reasonable procedural steps to resolve the dispute. The remedy for an employee dismissed for taking part in the strike during the protected period is a normal claim for unfair dismissal. That is to say, it is subject to the usual statutory limits on compensation and the restricted nature of the remedies for re-instatement and re-engagement.
2. A strike is normally a breach of contract unless the contract has already been determined on giving proper notice to terminate. Thus, if the notice to commence the strike was for full contractual notice (3 months) and was appropriately phrased, the employer would have no remedy in damages against the individual employee. If full notice is not given, then it is a somewhat open question as to how any losses claimed by the employer would be calculated. If the strike was called by BALPA without following the appropriate statutory procedural requirements, then the employer could make a claim for damages against BALPA.
3. While I am sure that BA would look very closely at BALPA's procedures in calling industrial action, if the procedures are followed carefully, there is no particular risk involved.
4. The position of those who go sick when a strike is taking place is quite difficult. If the Courts take the view that individuals would have taken part in the action if not sick, then they will be deemed to have taken part in the action.
Best wishes Pat Lawrence (C747/BACC/LHLC
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Fly Puppy,
I interpreted his comment that you quoted in your last post entirely differently. The long held assumption is that if the larger scheduled carriers pay more, then due to the exodus from the smaller carriers, the pay scales of the smaller companies is enhanced in order to prevent any further pilots leaving.
Market forces etc....
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Magnus
I interpreted his comment that you quoted in your last post entirely differently. The long held assumption is that if the larger scheduled carriers pay more, then due to the exodus from the smaller carriers, the pay scales of the smaller companies is enhanced in order to prevent any further pilots leaving.
Market forces etc....
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Magnus
