Qantas investigated after filling crew oxygen tanks with nitrogen!
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Are we not training a bunch of paper punching robots?? Always nice to bump into techs who question everything that looks or feels remotely wrong
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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Although I am not aware of any military or civil operator that screens potential pilots for their reaction to reduced oxygen levels there are definite piloting advantages to being abnormal in this context. The classic response of most people to reduced blood oxygen levels is euphoria. But some actually feel unwell and sweat when you turn off their oxygen. I always counted myself lucky to be one such. So did Andy Jones (later Mr Hawk).
In the early 70’s Andy was doing a performance climb on an export Hunter at Dunsfold. That aircraft had a cabin altitude of about 22,000ft when the aircraft was at 45,000ft (a low level of pressurisation by today’s standards I know - but that is how it was then) By 30,000ft he felt unwell so checked all his oxygen indications. All fine, flow and pressure. By 40 he felt rotten and decided he was ill. He checked the oxygen system again but no problems showed up. He decided he needed to land ASAP before whatever was wrong with him got worse. He remembered putting the aircraft into a rapid descent but the next thing he recalled was waking up to find himself supersonic and going through 10k very quickly. He sorted things out and landed. When we checked his oxygen cylinders they had been filled with air. Now that is what I call a gotcha. When he had selected 100% oxygen and emergency flow it blew out nicely all round his mask so everything about the system seemed normal. In those circumstances what is a guy to think? Just imagine if he had tent-pegged. Would they have ever dug deep enough to find the bottles? Probably not and it would have been put down to just another unexplained pilot problem.
In the early 70’s Andy was doing a performance climb on an export Hunter at Dunsfold. That aircraft had a cabin altitude of about 22,000ft when the aircraft was at 45,000ft (a low level of pressurisation by today’s standards I know - but that is how it was then) By 30,000ft he felt unwell so checked all his oxygen indications. All fine, flow and pressure. By 40 he felt rotten and decided he was ill. He checked the oxygen system again but no problems showed up. He decided he needed to land ASAP before whatever was wrong with him got worse. He remembered putting the aircraft into a rapid descent but the next thing he recalled was waking up to find himself supersonic and going through 10k very quickly. He sorted things out and landed. When we checked his oxygen cylinders they had been filled with air. Now that is what I call a gotcha. When he had selected 100% oxygen and emergency flow it blew out nicely all round his mask so everything about the system seemed normal. In those circumstances what is a guy to think? Just imagine if he had tent-pegged. Would they have ever dug deep enough to find the bottles? Probably not and it would have been put down to just another unexplained pilot problem.
SkyGod
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Well, if they are going to fill up the oxygen bottles with the wrong gas, use Nitrous oxide, also called Laughing Gas: The crew will have a good time and it won't kill 'em. 
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I recall tale from a pal working on Tristar heavy maintenance in the UK. They asked a work experience guy to fill the nitrogen accumulators for the hydraulics and, you guessed it, he went to stores and managed to connect the O2 via an improbable number of connectors to the N2 accumulator.
Legend has it that when the Big Boss noticed what was happening, he broke into a run for the first time in his life. (Away - if you're wondering)
Legend has it that when the Big Boss noticed what was happening, he broke into a run for the first time in his life. (Away - if you're wondering)
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cwatters, to answer your question, I regularly use nitrogen in my job in the petrochemical industry, and there have been many cases of people being asphyxiated by this very hazardous gas. It doesn't kill by poisoning, but by lack of oxygen. Apparently there is no warning whatsoever, just instant blackout and death!! This is my first reply and I'd like to say how much I enjoy reading this fascinating and educational forum.
Last edited by Aeroshell48; 24th Dec 2007 at 15:38.
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I used to work for a pacific airline in the '70's that was equipped with HS748s. Some moron filled the water methanol tanks with kerosene. Since the kero apparently floated on the water meth, once it was used up kerosene was injected into the cold section. Torque gauges went off the clock, lucky to avoid a double engine failure.
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Yep, you can fence off the control board and remove the fuses before you work in the shredder, but every now and then some guy will hop over the fence and put new fuses in when he gets back from his tea break.
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Yep, you can fence off the control board and remove the fuses before you work in the shredder, but every now and then some guy will hop over the fence and put new fuses in when he gets back from his tea break.
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Maybe I missed something but why doesn't the rig have a big huge sign saying NITROGEN or OXYGEN as appropriate.
As a QA guy I have long been in favour of making things simple. Put a sign on something that says "OPEN THIS AND DIE" tends to catch peoples attention.
As a QA guy I have long been in favour of making things simple. Put a sign on something that says "OPEN THIS AND DIE" tends to catch peoples attention.
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This thread has gone a bit cold, anyone got any news about Oxygen systems ???
On the L1011, the FD crew oxygen bottle is replaced when servicing is necessary, not filled in situe.
It is also green in color, and clearly marked aviators breathing oxygen...hard to miss.
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Although I am not aware of any military or civil operator that screens potential pilots for their reaction to reduced oxygen levels
We noticed that not one of us was immune to hypoxia
Expanding gas in the intestins did his work too.
Bart
Well, if they are going to fill up the oxygen bottles with the wrong gas, use Nitrous oxide, also called Laughing Gas: The crew will have a good time and it won't kill 'em.
Some people with access to Nitrous Oxide get addicted to it, and I can understand why.
Idiot proof
Post #27 Yes, but I still need to find a passing 5 yr. old to operate the child-proof cigarette lighter that I use to light the barbie !! ( Can't buy non-child proof ones now.
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I was reading elsewhere that moisture can dramatically accelerate corrosion in an oxygen bottle and implying that you have to be careful following use of incorrect gas that might contain moisture. Do aircraft system have special equipment or proceedures to remove moisture or was it necessary to remove all the bottles for specialist cleaning following this incident?
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Oxygen charging
411A says nYeah.
On the L1011, the FD crew oxygen bottle is replaced when servicing is necessary, not filled in situe.
It is also green in color, and clearly marked aviators breathing oxygen...hard to miss.
Not strictly true, Tristars on the British Register were fitted with a recharging facility. The charging point was in the fwd freight hold and featured a left hand thread connector.
There were some (not British reg) around that had a right hand thread and we needed an adaptor to allow our Oxygen rigs to be connected.
tristar 500
On the L1011, the FD crew oxygen bottle is replaced when servicing is necessary, not filled in situe.
It is also green in color, and clearly marked aviators breathing oxygen...hard to miss.
Not strictly true, Tristars on the British Register were fitted with a recharging facility. The charging point was in the fwd freight hold and featured a left hand thread connector.
There were some (not British reg) around that had a right hand thread and we needed an adaptor to allow our Oxygen rigs to be connected.
tristar 500
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This sort of maintenance-induced incident has happened before and unfortunately, WILL happen again.
The Aviation community's major defence against this sort of incident occurring has been to tightly control and supervise the training, licensing and supervision of aircraft trade apprentices, AMEs and LAMEs.
Unfortunately, all this corporate history of training and safety checks is being currently undone by the management staff of the so-called low cost carriers by their employment of the cheapest engineers and pilots and out-sourcing that money can buy.
Now mainline carrier managers in their struggle to contain costs and to compete with the low cost carriers have also resorted to the same tactics.
Out-sourcing of maintenance activities is seen to be the way to cheaper costs because the sub-contractors employ semi-skilled low-cost workers off the street and the employing carrier thinks it can can duck and shirk the responsibility for the work undertaken.
However, an airline cannot outsource the responsibility for the airworthiness of their fleet of aircraft. That responsibility always remains with the holder of the AOC. Many airline CEOs would not understand the meaning or significance of this concept.
To wit, just look at the woeful response of a CEO at an airline that has just suffered a major structural damage and decompression. If is obvious to even non-aviation observers that said CEO is totally out of his depth and hasn't got the faintest clue as to what the operational side of the airline is confronted with. Said CEO is already saying that the airline has done nothing wrong, in advance of the investigation. He says that if Oxy cylinders explode through the side of his aircraft, then that is not his company's fault!
The concept of the low cost carrier has finally turned us down the path of a sad decade of airline disasters.
The Aviation community's major defence against this sort of incident occurring has been to tightly control and supervise the training, licensing and supervision of aircraft trade apprentices, AMEs and LAMEs.
Unfortunately, all this corporate history of training and safety checks is being currently undone by the management staff of the so-called low cost carriers by their employment of the cheapest engineers and pilots and out-sourcing that money can buy.
Now mainline carrier managers in their struggle to contain costs and to compete with the low cost carriers have also resorted to the same tactics.
Out-sourcing of maintenance activities is seen to be the way to cheaper costs because the sub-contractors employ semi-skilled low-cost workers off the street and the employing carrier thinks it can can duck and shirk the responsibility for the work undertaken.
However, an airline cannot outsource the responsibility for the airworthiness of their fleet of aircraft. That responsibility always remains with the holder of the AOC. Many airline CEOs would not understand the meaning or significance of this concept.
To wit, just look at the woeful response of a CEO at an airline that has just suffered a major structural damage and decompression. If is obvious to even non-aviation observers that said CEO is totally out of his depth and hasn't got the faintest clue as to what the operational side of the airline is confronted with. Said CEO is already saying that the airline has done nothing wrong, in advance of the investigation. He says that if Oxy cylinders explode through the side of his aircraft, then that is not his company's fault!
The concept of the low cost carrier has finally turned us down the path of a sad decade of airline disasters.