Air France lose B777 ETOPS 180'
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[False rumor] Air France lose B777 ETOPS 180'
Due to the last engine failure on one of its Triple Seven, the Air France B777 ETOPS is lowered to 120'. That was the second in flight failure on the last two years. Bad day for the french company. Edit : that was just a rumor, Af didn't lost its ETOPS 180.
Last edited by ftrplt_fr; 17th Dec 2007 at 15:14. Reason: Unverified rumor
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I don't really see how you can blame the company for an engine failure? 
Unfortunatly being the nature of the beast, despite vast maintainance programmes somtimes these things just happen 
Unfortunatly being the nature of the beast, despite vast maintainance programmes somtimes these things just happen
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I know I am a neanderthal Luddite lousy pax but - despite all the best servicing and the indisputable math of ETOPS and everything - I still love a four-holer. (Hides underneath desk anticipating torrent of flames)
Due to the last engine failure on one of its Triple Seven, the Air France B777 ETOPS is lowered to 120'. That was the second in flight failure on the last two years. Bad day for the french company.
Single events don't mean much, linkages do
Pegase Driver
any substantiation to this rumor.
If the problems that cause this are due to the engine conception then it will affect all aircraft equipped with that engine model. If it is caused to airline maintenance deficiencies or specific utilization , then it will only affect AF.
The A340-600 is back in favor ...
despite all the best servicing and the indisputable math of ETOPS and everything - I still love a four-holer
AF cant use 346 because it uses a 'foreign' engine '. A lot of people are not aware of the french state tie up with GE engines [dont think they've been privatised yet] Also the ETOPS consideration is in flight shut down rate , cant remember the figures but its tiny. This quite often happens voluntarily until a problem is resolved, especially as there may be related ongoing problems with this engine that have not resulted in IFSD , but could be related. Also the reality is that you may not be using the full 180/207 mins ETOPS so that downgrading it has minimal operational impact most of the time except when you get weather problems etc at certain times of the year on certain routes.
AF cant use 346 because it uses a 'foreign' engine '. A lot of people are not aware of the french state tie up with GE engines [dont think they've been privatised yet] Also the ETOPS consideration is in flight shut down rate , cant remember the figures but its tiny. This quite often happens voluntarily until a problem is resolved, especially as there may be related ongoing problems with this engine that have not resulted in IFSD , but could be related. Also the reality is that you may not be using the full 180/207 mins ETOPS so that downgrading it has minimal operational impact most of the time except when you get weather problems etc at certain times of the year on certain routes.
maybe someday they will escalate this kind of response to all aircraft types including 4 engine machines.
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Quote:
despite all the best servicing and the indisputable math of ETOPS and everything - I still love a four-holer
...and double the chance of an engine failure!
despite all the best servicing and the indisputable math of ETOPS and everything - I still love a four-holer
...and double the chance of an engine failure!
Could your Average load A340-600 struggle to the nearest ETOPS type diversion having had a double IFSD mid pond ? Whats the drift down ? or would you keep going to destination
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"AF cant use 346 because it uses a 'foreign' engine '. A lot of people are not aware of the french state tie up with GE engines [dont think they've been privatised yet] "
Could you expand on that. I know that for short-haul, Air France sticks to CFM-56, and that is because this engine is jointly built by Snecma (a French company, partly owned by government) and GE.
But for long-haul, it uses GE made engines, that is engines 100 % american. It sticks to only a single supplier for these "long-haul engines" for reasons of costs/rationality and not, as far as I know, for questions of promoting the national industry.
Am I mistaken ??
Could you expand on that. I know that for short-haul, Air France sticks to CFM-56, and that is because this engine is jointly built by Snecma (a French company, partly owned by government) and GE.
But for long-haul, it uses GE made engines, that is engines 100 % american. It sticks to only a single supplier for these "long-haul engines" for reasons of costs/rationality and not, as far as I know, for questions of promoting the national industry.
Am I mistaken ??
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Rwy in sight
Does it make any difference if the IFSD occured in the ETOPS or not ETOPS area of the flight?
No it`s the inflight shut down rate that counts.
Tristar 500
Does it make any difference if the IFSD occured in the ETOPS or not ETOPS area of the flight?
No it`s the inflight shut down rate that counts.
Tristar 500
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Again sorry for a non-professional comment - it seems to me that the beyond the 2-engine vs the 4-engine argument, the question is about the reliability of the newest 115B engine. Surely much more must be known about the engine(s) powering the 747-400? Would it make sense to ask, how many "total hours" of (monitored) operation is sufficient to grant ETOPSXXX certification?
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Would it make sense to ask, how many "total hours" of (monitored) operation is sufficient to grant ETOPSXXX certification?
The second part of the approval process is an evaluation of engine
in-flight shutdowns and other significant airplane system failures that
have occurred while the airplane-engine combination has been in
service. The candidate airplane-engine combination should accumulate at
least 250,000 engine-hours of service experience for a meaningful
evaluation, although the AC [FAA Advisory Circular 120-42A ] allows a lower number of hours with
adequate compensating factors.
in-flight shutdowns and other significant airplane system failures that
have occurred while the airplane-engine combination has been in
service. The candidate airplane-engine combination should accumulate at
least 250,000 engine-hours of service experience for a meaningful
evaluation, although the AC [FAA Advisory Circular 120-42A ] allows a lower number of hours with
adequate compensating factors.
With the introduction of the Boeing Model 777, the FAA introduced a
new method for an applicant to obtain an ETOPS type design approval
without the service experience required for an approval under AC 120-
42A. This method is known as the ``early ETOPS'' approval process.
The early ETOPS process takes a systems approach to the development
of an airplane and engine. Without service experience to identify
design flaws that could lead to in-flight shutdowns or diversions, an
applicant must demonstrate that the design flaws on previously designed
airplanes are not present in the new airplane. The applicant must also
consider how the maximum length flight and diversion affect the design
and function of airplane systems to ensure that they have the
capability and reliability for safe ETOPS flight.
Rigorous ground and flight tests are required to demonstrate that
the airplane-engine combination can successfully support an ETOPS
program, including validation of maintenance procedures for systems
whose failures could lead to an engine in-flight shutdown or a
diversion. An enhanced problem reporting and resolution system
identifies and corrects significant problems before the airplane is
certified. After approval, this same system remains in place during the
early service period to identify and correct such problems before they
can lead to additional in-flight shutdowns and diversions.
new method for an applicant to obtain an ETOPS type design approval
without the service experience required for an approval under AC 120-
42A. This method is known as the ``early ETOPS'' approval process.
The early ETOPS process takes a systems approach to the development
of an airplane and engine. Without service experience to identify
design flaws that could lead to in-flight shutdowns or diversions, an
applicant must demonstrate that the design flaws on previously designed
airplanes are not present in the new airplane. The applicant must also
consider how the maximum length flight and diversion affect the design
and function of airplane systems to ensure that they have the
capability and reliability for safe ETOPS flight.
Rigorous ground and flight tests are required to demonstrate that
the airplane-engine combination can successfully support an ETOPS
program, including validation of maintenance procedures for systems
whose failures could lead to an engine in-flight shutdown or a
diversion. An enhanced problem reporting and resolution system
identifies and corrects significant problems before the airplane is
certified. After approval, this same system remains in place during the
early service period to identify and correct such problems before they
can lead to additional in-flight shutdowns and diversions.