Pilot Shortage. Fact or fiction?
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I don't think there is a shortage either, just movement among companies whereby the cr*ppy ones lose their crews and the good ones are never short. Surely the reason EK is prowling about the world looking for crews is because the money sucks, the housing sucks and the cost of living in Dubai has gone through the roof; management treats pilots like something stuck on their shoes.............. I know all this and I don't work there!
I wouldn't underestimate the impact of the Age 60 change as well.
Pilots entering the bottom of the pipeline can expect to be frozen where they are for 3-5 years when the law changes. That's bound to turn some away.
And for those coming after the change - they just get to start five years later. Same number of jobs, just older pilots filling them, at all levels .
It took me until age 33 before I made a wage big enough for my wife to stay home with our brood. If the rule had changed earlier it would have been 38......
Pilots entering the bottom of the pipeline can expect to be frozen where they are for 3-5 years when the law changes. That's bound to turn some away.
And for those coming after the change - they just get to start five years later. Same number of jobs, just older pilots filling them, at all levels .
It took me until age 33 before I made a wage big enough for my wife to stay home with our brood. If the rule had changed earlier it would have been 38......
The problem in the USA is that pilots are generally older when they join the "majors" or the bigger airlines than in Europe. Quite a few pilots still elect to quit at 60 or at a time of their choosing between 60-65.
US majors have glorified the advantage of hiring pilots with thousands of hours, either from the military or from regionals. However as far as low time pilots being hired and trained in Europe, it appears that these carriers are doing just as well, or even better and with todays exchange rate, paying better
(Iīm ducking, incoming...)
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Originally posted by Paxboy:
That is the real question here: Do non type rated fail more often than rated? I guess it's the task of a good HR and Flight Ops recruiting team to find out who will be qualified or not, independent on which type ratings the candidates bear. Is a rated, but less qualified pilot making more money in the long run? I seriously doubt. Btw if you find pilots without the rating, you can give them slightly lower wages, so the bean counters should like the idea. That's a clear indication that this strange idea about rated pilots doesn't come from this corner, but from the grey haired chief flight ops'.
I think you can hardly compare the IT with the pilots business. You would have to argue that an IT project manager can only work with the same projects he lead before. All management jobs show very clearly that it's experience that counts, not the field where you have gained it.
Dani
But - if they get it wrong, and the person does not qualify?
I think you can hardly compare the IT with the pilots business. You would have to argue that an IT project manager can only work with the same projects he lead before. All management jobs show very clearly that it's experience that counts, not the field where you have gained it.
Dani
Last edited by Dani; 26th Nov 2007 at 10:05.
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Originally posted by MungoP:
Well, this has been discussed here already. In Europe nearly every airline hires FOs with 250 hours. I cannot see any advantage of pilots having SE pilots with night-freight experience except with flying skills. I fail to see the advantage of an aviation system where 250 hrs SE pilots share the same skies like me 
And if they survive, they become solide lonely fighters, having no clue about CRM, bigger aircraft and pax handling.
No, I prefer the European way anytime!
Dani
I would prefer to concentrate on safety and keep these grossly under-experienced jokers away from the sharp end until they've proven themselves on single crew night-freight for a couple of winters. We now have companies advertising for P2s with as little as 250 hrs...
And if they survive, they become solide lonely fighters, having no clue about CRM, bigger aircraft and pax handling.No, I prefer the European way anytime!
Dani
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The shortage of experienced pilots IS real and came to stay
BUT
Companies with good pay rates don`t feel this shortage....
So , if you want pilots , open your hand....
BUT
Companies with good pay rates don`t feel this shortage....
So , if you want pilots , open your hand....
Paxing All Over The World
Dani
I wasn't. Sorry if I did not make myself clear. I was trying to point out that: managers in different fields make the same mistake.
In this case, they think that hiring only fully qualified staff will do. They do not like training someone new from outside because it costs money and the outcome is uncertain. As well as the cost of training, the cost of recruitment is high in staff time and paperwork. If the candidate then fails, the gap in the schedules might mean lost rotations. If you already have the type rating, then their risk is gone. They, of course, want to have the person both rated AND cheap.
Once they have someone in the company for a few years, they will consider cross training them on another type but only because they know them. Taking a promising person and training them is a high risk - so they don't do it. And they don't do in IT either!!
I think you can hardly compare the IT with the pilots business.
In this case, they think that hiring only fully qualified staff will do. They do not like training someone new from outside because it costs money and the outcome is uncertain. As well as the cost of training, the cost of recruitment is high in staff time and paperwork. If the candidate then fails, the gap in the schedules might mean lost rotations. If you already have the type rating, then their risk is gone. They, of course, want to have the person both rated AND cheap.
Once they have someone in the company for a few years, they will consider cross training them on another type but only because they know them. Taking a promising person and training them is a high risk - so they don't do it. And they don't do in IT either!!
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Negative shortage
This "shortage" situation has been a persistent rumour for at least 3 years now.
Observed facts are:
Yes, there is a high demand for experienced pilots, and those are in short supply. However, age 60 rule changes have made a noticeable impact on that front in many countries.
Also an important shortage mitigating fact is that experience requirements have been lowered worldwide. It is not unusual nowadays to have 3000 hours captains on large airliners.
As always, reputable operators attract experienced pilots. There is no shortage at SG, UA, BA, AC, QX, EK, AF etc.
The "democratisation" of airline travel has seen the proliferation of budget and charter carriers and that's mainly where the pilot hiring action happens.
Even there, many of those operate in very permissive regulatory environments and can fill their pilot seats with inexperienced people.
Having recently been job hunting, my experience clearly demonstrates that on the global scene, there is no shortage. Many operators will demand an experienced candidate to get their own type rating. Many will not even provide tickets for interviews, etc.
There is NO shortage. I will only beleive it when employers provide incentives and when it translates in better salaries and conditions.
Observed facts are:
Yes, there is a high demand for experienced pilots, and those are in short supply. However, age 60 rule changes have made a noticeable impact on that front in many countries.
Also an important shortage mitigating fact is that experience requirements have been lowered worldwide. It is not unusual nowadays to have 3000 hours captains on large airliners.
As always, reputable operators attract experienced pilots. There is no shortage at SG, UA, BA, AC, QX, EK, AF etc.
The "democratisation" of airline travel has seen the proliferation of budget and charter carriers and that's mainly where the pilot hiring action happens.
Even there, many of those operate in very permissive regulatory environments and can fill their pilot seats with inexperienced people.
Having recently been job hunting, my experience clearly demonstrates that on the global scene, there is no shortage. Many operators will demand an experienced candidate to get their own type rating. Many will not even provide tickets for interviews, etc.
There is NO shortage. I will only beleive it when employers provide incentives and when it translates in better salaries and conditions.
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Aahh reminds me of the good old problem in the haulage industry. No shortage of drivers but a serious shortage of GOOD drivers e.g. experienced drivers.
When Poland joined the EU the company I work for had a recruitment drive and we had approximately 50 applicants that we assessed. We only employed 5 of them.
Most of the others ended up in the local agencies and occasionally drive for us. One of them recently tried to take a 12' 9" lorry under a 10' bridge. Apparently he couldn't use his sat nav so was reading the map.
Oh dear... Oh dear... Oh dear.
When Poland joined the EU the company I work for had a recruitment drive and we had approximately 50 applicants that we assessed. We only employed 5 of them.
Most of the others ended up in the local agencies and occasionally drive for us. One of them recently tried to take a 12' 9" lorry under a 10' bridge. Apparently he couldn't use his sat nav so was reading the map.
Oh dear... Oh dear... Oh dear.
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"In Europe nearly every airline hires FOs with 250 hours"
Most definetely not true. Some airlines in Europe hire a few low hour pilots is closer to the mark. Many airlines have a minimum experience level and some hire a mix of low houred and experienced guys. For the same qualifications airlines will hire the pilot with more hours.
I know because I still remember looking for a job with 200 hours and let me tell you, it wasn't easy.
It is the nature of the beast that with 200 hours you think you know it all, with 1000 you realize that you didn't but now you do, with 4000 you... and so on.
Airlines and most companies will hire proven candidates if they can over unproven ones.
Most definetely not true. Some airlines in Europe hire a few low hour pilots is closer to the mark. Many airlines have a minimum experience level and some hire a mix of low houred and experienced guys. For the same qualifications airlines will hire the pilot with more hours.
I know because I still remember looking for a job with 200 hours and let me tell you, it wasn't easy.
It is the nature of the beast that with 200 hours you think you know it all, with 1000 you realize that you didn't but now you do, with 4000 you... and so on.
Airlines and most companies will hire proven candidates if they can over unproven ones.
Intruder:
A CRJ former CRJ Check Airman told me that his company hired some pilots with NO multi-engine rating.
You might wonder why he is a... former... Check Airman?
He told me that he is not ready to fly solo, even after their IOE is over (80 hours?), to ATL, DFW, MIA, BOS, LGA and JFK with pilots who have zero experience.
Would this not be challenging in good weather after a good night's sleep?
His company offered him 150% pay, and he told them no thank you.
I saw him a week later at the shoe shine stand and he confirmed his previous comments.
Another guy told me that Chautauqua is forcing FOs to upgrade, because they have so few Captains available, or those who have the required PIC hours or comfort level etc.
Lekker slapen.
A CRJ former CRJ Check Airman told me that his company hired some pilots with NO multi-engine rating.
You might wonder why he is a... former... Check Airman?
He told me that he is not ready to fly solo, even after their IOE is over (80 hours?), to ATL, DFW, MIA, BOS, LGA and JFK with pilots who have zero experience.
Would this not be challenging in good weather after a good night's sleep?His company offered him 150% pay, and he told them no thank you.
I saw him a week later at the shoe shine stand and he confirmed his previous comments.
Another guy told me that Chautauqua is forcing FOs to upgrade, because they have so few Captains available, or those who have the required PIC hours or comfort level etc.
Lekker slapen.
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Is it just me or it seems that the problem is not the current "shortage", but a glut in the near future.
A lot of the shortage seems to be caused by expanding carriers trying to obtain pilots to fill the gaps between now and the time their own ab-initio training gets into gear... After that???? It'll be back to the days like when I got an email from a widebody pilot who was asking about the possibilities of flying in Indonesia for near to dirt pay...
So, any ideas when this glut is going to come?
A lot of the shortage seems to be caused by expanding carriers trying to obtain pilots to fill the gaps between now and the time their own ab-initio training gets into gear... After that???? It'll be back to the days like when I got an email from a widebody pilot who was asking about the possibilities of flying in Indonesia for near to dirt pay...
So, any ideas when this glut is going to come?
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So, any ideas when this glut is going to come?
Any wanabees out there who are expecting a stable and predictable career in aviation need to keep this in mind...
As for Europe having a history of employing very low time pilots (<1000) that maybe true but most reputable airlines had an established 2nd officer program running that ensured an acceptable level of experience in the cockpit... way too many large and very sophisticated aircraft are now being flown almost single crew and the public have a right to expect 2 competent pilots up front not just one plus a bag carrier.
This has been done to death many times in these columns but that doesn't make the issue any less important... for good CRM it's essential that both crew have a respect for each other... it might be simple enough for a low time F/O to point out an obvious error by the Capt but when it comes to a discussion of whether it's sensible even to undertake an approach to a marginal airfield ( more and more common these days ) under difficult circumstances, how much credence is going to be given to a fresh-faced P2 with very little hard-winter IFR in his log-book... ?
Trash du Blanc
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Any wanabees out there who are expecting a stable and predictable career in aviation need to keep this in mind...
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Here's an excerpt from a recent newspaper article on the subject:
Regional airlines lower bar for pilots
By TREBOR BANSTETTER
Star-Telegram staff writer
If you've flown on a regional airline like American Eagle or Atlantic Southeast Airlines with any regularity, you may have noticed that the pilots seem a bit younger.
It's not your imagination. Regional carriers, which operate flights for major airlines like American, Delta and United, have been slashing their minimum hiring requirements in recent years as they grapple with a growing shortage of pilots. The carriers have reduced required flight hours for job applicants by as much as two-thirds, and in a few cases have hired pilots with the minimum experience required by the Federal Aviation Administration for a pilot's license...
http://www.star-telegram.com/business/story/322928.html
Regional airlines lower bar for pilots
By TREBOR BANSTETTER
Star-Telegram staff writer
If you've flown on a regional airline like American Eagle or Atlantic Southeast Airlines with any regularity, you may have noticed that the pilots seem a bit younger.
It's not your imagination. Regional carriers, which operate flights for major airlines like American, Delta and United, have been slashing their minimum hiring requirements in recent years as they grapple with a growing shortage of pilots. The carriers have reduced required flight hours for job applicants by as much as two-thirds, and in a few cases have hired pilots with the minimum experience required by the Federal Aviation Administration for a pilot's license...
http://www.star-telegram.com/business/story/322928.html
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MungoP
That is not correct. There are many very reputable European carriers taking on 200-hour pilots as FOs, not SOs. They start on the short-haul fleet, where most airlines don't have SOs. I agree that it is not a good idea (I fly single-crew, and could not take some of those guys on in our little aircraft) but it happens.
That is not correct. There are many very reputable European carriers taking on 200-hour pilots as FOs, not SOs. They start on the short-haul fleet, where most airlines don't have SOs. I agree that it is not a good idea (I fly single-crew, and could not take some of those guys on in our little aircraft) but it happens.
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Beech... Maybe i didn't put it too well... what I was responding to was a comment earlier in the thread claiming ( I think ) that European airlines had a tradition of employing very low time crew for the RH seat... my remark was that yes they have done for many years but that was generally by better established airlines who employed a 2nd officer system allowing the newby to gain good experience under the watchful eye of a senior F/O... this is rarely the case now as you point out... we just get the low-time F/Os and be expected to train them as unpaid training Capts... sure they can identify the right buttons to push but decision making is relegated all to often to the LH seat with little useful input from P2... After all... if Log-Book hours are now rconsidered to be relatively unimportant why do we bother keeping Log-Books ??
There is an infallible indicator to a pilot shortage.
It is when no-one has to pay for their own type rating upon being recruited. And if you show any hesitation at the interview, they point out that there is no training bond either. And that you will be paid from day one.
That is most certainly not the current situation.
...however things are currently improving.
It is when no-one has to pay for their own type rating upon being recruited. And if you show any hesitation at the interview, they point out that there is no training bond either. And that you will be paid from day one.
That is most certainly not the current situation.
...however things are currently improving.
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sorry, NO shortage of pilots in Europe.
did 2 interviews last month, none have been selected or less than 10% in one company.
Just go on the interview section of this forum, and see by yourself the number of unemployed pilots looking for job.
I got 2 offers by 2 companies in Turkey and India, they asked me to pay to work.is that a shortage? for me aviation is over, I go where people pay me ...
did 2 interviews last month, none have been selected or less than 10% in one company.
Just go on the interview section of this forum, and see by yourself the number of unemployed pilots looking for job.
I got 2 offers by 2 companies in Turkey and India, they asked me to pay to work.is that a shortage? for me aviation is over, I go where people pay me ...
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Pilot shortage - definitely true...
I have kept old aviation magazines and publications since... 50 years ago...
Name them: Interavia, Aviation Magazine, Flight, Aviation Week...
I kept some, with interesting articles or pictures...
And I read the wanted ads and advertisements published back then...
xxx
A pilot shortage exists since approximately early 1974
(According to flight colleges, aviation "academies" and air "universities")
In my early days (1960s), there were just "pilot schools"...
Back then, it took US$5,000 to get a CPL+IR to qualify for any airline.
Multiengine rating... not needed then...
I recall my furlough in NOV 1973, due to the oil crisis (October War)
Had to go overseas (Middle East) to find a job, despite 707 and 727 experience...
xxx
What I recall as shortage was mostly in pilot trainees...
So, most "colleges, academies and universities" needed to advertise "shortages"
(of trainees, but that, they did not specify)...
Especially now that you need to spend $100,000.
And Daddy will offer you a B-737 type rating for your 18th birthday...
xxx
The only shortage I know, is decent new-hire salaries among most airlines...
So - yes... there is a pilot shortage since 1974...
xxx
Happy contrails
Name them: Interavia, Aviation Magazine, Flight, Aviation Week...
I kept some, with interesting articles or pictures...
And I read the wanted ads and advertisements published back then...
xxx
A pilot shortage exists since approximately early 1974
(According to flight colleges, aviation "academies" and air "universities")
In my early days (1960s), there were just "pilot schools"...
Back then, it took US$5,000 to get a CPL+IR to qualify for any airline.
Multiengine rating... not needed then...
I recall my furlough in NOV 1973, due to the oil crisis (October War)
Had to go overseas (Middle East) to find a job, despite 707 and 727 experience...
xxx
What I recall as shortage was mostly in pilot trainees...
So, most "colleges, academies and universities" needed to advertise "shortages"
(of trainees, but that, they did not specify)...
Especially now that you need to spend $100,000.
And Daddy will offer you a B-737 type rating for your 18th birthday...
xxx
The only shortage I know, is decent new-hire salaries among most airlines...
So - yes... there is a pilot shortage since 1974...
xxx
Happy contrails