Continental Pilots Say Jets Flying On Fumes
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Continental Pilots Say Jets Flying On Fumes
Can't be as bad as they say can it?
http://cbs5.com/national/airline.fue....2.593678.html
Happy Turkey Day everybody !!
http://cbs5.com/national/airline.fue....2.593678.html
Happy Turkey Day everybody !!
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Captain Starkey IS a Turkey
"Shuttle astronauts have to rely on their coworkers"..... Thats great, but when the shuttle takes off and lands others are moved out of the way. We have to deal with a dynamic environment where all the unknowns factor in.(Like the guy ahead of us closing the runway etc).
I can think of a place I can put my "carbon" footprint on this guy. Besides that, if I run low on fuel on every flight I will perspire a lot, which will contribute to global warming.
Add a few hundred pounds of fuel for your kids, some for the wife and then some more just to irritate the bean-counters. Why? Because we can. We are in command of the airplane, not some dispatcher somewhere.
I can think of a place I can put my "carbon" footprint on this guy. Besides that, if I run low on fuel on every flight I will perspire a lot, which will contribute to global warming.
Add a few hundred pounds of fuel for your kids, some for the wife and then some more just to irritate the bean-counters. Why? Because we can. We are in command of the airplane, not some dispatcher somewhere.
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Absolute min fuel
A sphincter twitching, is not safe a sphincter Mr Master Dispatcher!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How's yours sport when the Feds come visit???????
How's yours sport when the Feds come visit???????
The Continental Pilot Fuel Bonus program was described by "Aviation Week & ST" magazine in either the late 80s or early 90s. This was probably one of Lorenzo's "String Puppets' "projects. The FAA stopped the policy-and THAT Said Something, when the FAA decided not to rubber-stamp this.
About two years ago we were delayed into Newark (EWR) by a broken line of weather. After we deplaned, boarded and taxied out, we heard a CO 737 pilot check in with tower-they had already declared a fuel emergency and about two rescue trucks were cleared somewhere across runway 22R, only as a precaution, to meet them at 22L. For the unfamiliar, this entire area is by far the most congested airspace in the US, compounded by nearby LGA, JFK, ABE, MDT, PHL, Dover and McGuire AFB etc.
There may be no connection between that wise declaration to ATC (when necessary) and this new media story on the policies at CO.
My company has no formal policy as such (we would not tolerate it), and despite having several new Dispatchers, they tend to plan contingency and alternate fuel in a conservative manner, almost all of the time. Even the taxi fuel (i.e. 60 min. in ATL) adds to the airborne contingency fuel, when the weather is not bad. But weather forecast updates and observations often change quite fast.
About two years ago we were delayed into Newark (EWR) by a broken line of weather. After we deplaned, boarded and taxied out, we heard a CO 737 pilot check in with tower-they had already declared a fuel emergency and about two rescue trucks were cleared somewhere across runway 22R, only as a precaution, to meet them at 22L. For the unfamiliar, this entire area is by far the most congested airspace in the US, compounded by nearby LGA, JFK, ABE, MDT, PHL, Dover and McGuire AFB etc.
There may be no connection between that wise declaration to ATC (when necessary) and this new media story on the policies at CO.
My company has no formal policy as such (we would not tolerate it), and despite having several new Dispatchers, they tend to plan contingency and alternate fuel in a conservative manner, almost all of the time. Even the taxi fuel (i.e. 60 min. in ATL) adds to the airborne contingency fuel, when the weather is not bad. But weather forecast updates and observations often change quite fast.
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My airline also has a very tight fuel policy. The captain is responsible of course, and can add additional fuel. But the trend is monitored and if he/she falls outside the box it will be looked into (I know of only two cases in the last ten years though, where people were asked to explain themselves).
One thing I don't understand in this, is the fact that we never discuss unusable fuel. If we land with 45 minutes fuel (not rare at all), we always assume that it is indeed 45 minutes, while back in my little old cessna days there was a quantity that was considered unusable. In our FCOM's it does mention high pitch angles and the fuel pumps being layed bare causing further alarms, but that is about it. I can't imagine uninterrupted fuel flow all the way down to zero.
Question for me has always been, why is there no unusable fuel? And if there is such a thing, why isn't that then automatically added to your minimum 30 minutes (in order to make sure you have at least 30 minutes!).
Greetings O.
One thing I don't understand in this, is the fact that we never discuss unusable fuel. If we land with 45 minutes fuel (not rare at all), we always assume that it is indeed 45 minutes, while back in my little old cessna days there was a quantity that was considered unusable. In our FCOM's it does mention high pitch angles and the fuel pumps being layed bare causing further alarms, but that is about it. I can't imagine uninterrupted fuel flow all the way down to zero.
Question for me has always been, why is there no unusable fuel? And if there is such a thing, why isn't that then automatically added to your minimum 30 minutes (in order to make sure you have at least 30 minutes!).
Greetings O.
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Call Fuel PanPan and you are number One. Call Mayday and the skies part like the Red Sea. How convenient. Say a 10,000 Pound fine if Choxs with less than half hour in tanks may stop these buggers! 
Freight God
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Otterman
Unusable fuel would be counted in your DOW. No need for you to know how much it is since you carry it as weight only. Although, I am sure it is mentioned somewhere in your W&B manual.
Revealing question, methinks...
Unusable fuel would be counted in your DOW. No need for you to know how much it is since you carry it as weight only. Although, I am sure it is mentioned somewhere in your W&B manual.
Revealing question, methinks...
Buttonpusher
a memo from Continental has been released to pilots to urge pilots not to "indiscriminately" add fuel.
What's the problem with that?
What's the problem with that?
DA50driver,
Yup, you hit the nail right on the head.
In the RAF I didn't mind returning with 10 minutes fuel. I knew I could get straight in or land at the nearby satellite or bang out (when I was a stude).
Arriving at a busy airport is a totally different matter.
IMHO a bit of a silly letter.
Yup, you hit the nail right on the head.
In the RAF I didn't mind returning with 10 minutes fuel. I knew I could get straight in or land at the nearby satellite or bang out (when I was a stude).
Arriving at a busy airport is a totally different matter.
IMHO a bit of a silly letter.
Folks,
For all of you flying Boeing aircraft, I suggest you acquaint yourselves with the Boeing "minimum fuel for approach" figures, you will get rather a surprise.
In general terms, if you want a 100% guarantee that all engines will still be running (fuel wise) at the end of the landing roll, you better have the ICAO "fixed final reserve" in tanks ---- 30min. @ 1500' holding fuel flow will do -- at the end of the landing roll.
From memory, the Boeing definition was based on an aircraft at 1500', on final in the landing configuration, and Boeing published figures for all types and variants, after a number of really serious incidents with a variety of aircraft, including more than one case of a 747-100 and 200 having one or more engines flame out on final, despite indicate and calculated "reserves" remaining. From memory, the "minimum fuel for approach" for a 747-100/200/300 is about 12,000lb.
One very well known international operator, as a result of the above "experiences" , has a requirement, where ever the aircraft lands, to have 30' min. in tanks at the end of the landing roll.
Don't be around, the day all the +/- inherent in any measuring system all wind up -.
Tootle pip!!
For all of you flying Boeing aircraft, I suggest you acquaint yourselves with the Boeing "minimum fuel for approach" figures, you will get rather a surprise.
In general terms, if you want a 100% guarantee that all engines will still be running (fuel wise) at the end of the landing roll, you better have the ICAO "fixed final reserve" in tanks ---- 30min. @ 1500' holding fuel flow will do -- at the end of the landing roll.
From memory, the Boeing definition was based on an aircraft at 1500', on final in the landing configuration, and Boeing published figures for all types and variants, after a number of really serious incidents with a variety of aircraft, including more than one case of a 747-100 and 200 having one or more engines flame out on final, despite indicate and calculated "reserves" remaining. From memory, the "minimum fuel for approach" for a 747-100/200/300 is about 12,000lb.
One very well known international operator, as a result of the above "experiences" , has a requirement, where ever the aircraft lands, to have 30' min. in tanks at the end of the landing roll.
Don't be around, the day all the +/- inherent in any measuring system all wind up -.
Tootle pip!!
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Just a couple of points. In the US, flights operating as "domestic" flights within the continental US are required to have 45 minutes reserve at "normal cruise' (not at 1500 feet). This is usually a bit more than the 30 minute reserve at 1500 feet that is used in flag or international operations.
Also, as some have noted the reserve fuel does not mean you should ignore go-around or deck angle limitations that would uncover pumps at low fuel levels. These result in being committed to a landing and not being able to make a go around at the risk of fuel exhaustion.
Also, under US rules, flights that land with less than 45 minutes for domestic operations or 30 minutes in the case of flag operations are not considered to be an emergency situation, as exists under the JARs. As long as the flight was planned properly, and it lands safely, it is considered to be within the legal requirements even if it lands with less than reserve. That doesn't mean that a flight cannot declare minimum fuel state, or they can certainly declare an emergency if they feel the need.
And to the issue of pressure by management regarding saving fuel, this will not be the first or last time that this happens. It is to a certain degree a part of the business, especially in today's high fuel cost environment. But it doesn't take away the responsibility of the Captain and the Flight Dispatcher (in the US) to ensure that the flight is conducted with what they believe are safe fuel minimums under the circumstances of each flight.
Also, regarding the comment above about the "Master Dispatcher", I say this from the perspective of an FAA certified flight dispatcher with many years of experience, with a view that there have been plenty of times when yes, Captains added more fuel than I would have recommended, but there were also plenty of times when certain Captains wanted to reduce their fuel significantly below what was even minimally required, and I refused. On some of those occasions I even got comments from their F.Os thanking me.
Whenever a US dispatcher plans the fuel for a flight, he/she knows that they are signing the release along with the Captain and are held responsible for what they do by the FAA. We have a saying. It is "think about what you would say at the hearing".
It seems to me that the system we have in the US, where either the Captain or the Dispatcher may add more fuel, but neither may reduce fuel below what the other will agree to, is a safer way to deal with this subject.
Also, having both the Captain and Dispatcher agreeing with a minimum fuel, takes away a lot of the pressure on the crew from management. They cannot intervene and arbitrarily change it.
Also, I disagree with any carrier that implements a policy that rewards operational personnel for saving fuel or punishing them for not saving it. It sends the wrong message. Operational personnel should normally try to save fuel anyway, but should always be thinking of safety first and take whatever fuel they believe is justified by the operational circumstances.
Also, as some have noted the reserve fuel does not mean you should ignore go-around or deck angle limitations that would uncover pumps at low fuel levels. These result in being committed to a landing and not being able to make a go around at the risk of fuel exhaustion.
Also, under US rules, flights that land with less than 45 minutes for domestic operations or 30 minutes in the case of flag operations are not considered to be an emergency situation, as exists under the JARs. As long as the flight was planned properly, and it lands safely, it is considered to be within the legal requirements even if it lands with less than reserve. That doesn't mean that a flight cannot declare minimum fuel state, or they can certainly declare an emergency if they feel the need.
And to the issue of pressure by management regarding saving fuel, this will not be the first or last time that this happens. It is to a certain degree a part of the business, especially in today's high fuel cost environment. But it doesn't take away the responsibility of the Captain and the Flight Dispatcher (in the US) to ensure that the flight is conducted with what they believe are safe fuel minimums under the circumstances of each flight.
Also, regarding the comment above about the "Master Dispatcher", I say this from the perspective of an FAA certified flight dispatcher with many years of experience, with a view that there have been plenty of times when yes, Captains added more fuel than I would have recommended, but there were also plenty of times when certain Captains wanted to reduce their fuel significantly below what was even minimally required, and I refused. On some of those occasions I even got comments from their F.Os thanking me.
Whenever a US dispatcher plans the fuel for a flight, he/she knows that they are signing the release along with the Captain and are held responsible for what they do by the FAA. We have a saying. It is "think about what you would say at the hearing".
It seems to me that the system we have in the US, where either the Captain or the Dispatcher may add more fuel, but neither may reduce fuel below what the other will agree to, is a safer way to deal with this subject.
Also, having both the Captain and Dispatcher agreeing with a minimum fuel, takes away a lot of the pressure on the crew from management. They cannot intervene and arbitrarily change it.
Also, I disagree with any carrier that implements a policy that rewards operational personnel for saving fuel or punishing them for not saving it. It sends the wrong message. Operational personnel should normally try to save fuel anyway, but should always be thinking of safety first and take whatever fuel they believe is justified by the operational circumstances.
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SWA has some room to improve, which should make it relatively easy to regain some savings with little effort or re-training, e.g. CI36 (or 28 for classics) should be reviewed (and most likely lowered). I'd nearly bet those figures are not cost optimal, based on current ops vs. fuel costs.
The planned standard contingency fuel reserves using the following formula for flts between 2~4hrs of :35 is too simplistic (an :45 for those over 4hrs) and has no statistical basis, ie its not relavant to the city-pair. Think about operating a 3hr flt from LAX-SEA (snoozer). And compare that to a 2hr hop from FLA-BWI (white knuckler).
The price of fuel will force overly simplistic procedures and fuel policies to come under further review.
The planned standard contingency fuel reserves using the following formula for flts between 2~4hrs of :35 is too simplistic (an :45 for those over 4hrs) and has no statistical basis, ie its not relavant to the city-pair. Think about operating a 3hr flt from LAX-SEA (snoozer). And compare that to a 2hr hop from FLA-BWI (white knuckler).
The price of fuel will force overly simplistic procedures and fuel policies to come under further review.
Another extra major factor influencing fuel burn happens only in the hot humid summers in the US. Our contingency fuel does not include this fairly frequent
problem.
Last summer in Houston (IAH), we waited about an hour and a half for departure, but do to the inability for the old APU to keep the cabin/c0ckpit even halfway cool
, I let an engine run at idle for the entire delay, which involved waiting at two different runways. Only the east departures were directly affected, but even northbounds were held a long time.
We were about 5-10 minutes from a min. fuel situation when we took off, and this lasted for the entire flight. Halfway to the destination, I sent a message to Dispatch stating that if ATC gave us any delays enroute, anywhere, we would divert to whichever midwestern airport was nearby, at least near the destination (mostly good weather was north of DFW/OKC). Being late to the destination resulted in almost no traffic in front of us.
You always decide to draw a line in the sand somewhere when necessary, after looking at all factors, including ideas of the other pilot(s) and Flight Engineer, if you are fortunate enough to have one behind you. Many of you are not required to choose between a liveable temperature and making it to the dest., with no accurate info on how much contingency you WILL use, just to keep semi-cool.
Only many years of experience help us anticipate just how much into that extra, new safety "corner" we might go. Any "mission-oriented thinking" is no longer on the "list". Winter offers different factors, not just the question on whether we will be inside the de-icing holdover time, or can safely land at the next nasty frozen airport with a landing weight of about 108,000 pounds and a direct 15-knot crosswind.
problem.
Last summer in Houston (IAH), we waited about an hour and a half for departure, but do to the inability for the old APU to keep the cabin/c0ckpit even halfway cool
, I let an engine run at idle for the entire delay, which involved waiting at two different runways. Only the east departures were directly affected, but even northbounds were held a long time.We were about 5-10 minutes from a min. fuel situation when we took off, and this lasted for the entire flight. Halfway to the destination, I sent a message to Dispatch stating that if ATC gave us any delays enroute, anywhere, we would divert to whichever midwestern airport was nearby, at least near the destination (mostly good weather was north of DFW/OKC). Being late to the destination resulted in almost no traffic in front of us.
You always decide to draw a line in the sand somewhere when necessary, after looking at all factors, including ideas of the other pilot(s) and Flight Engineer, if you are fortunate enough to have one behind you. Many of you are not required to choose between a liveable temperature and making it to the dest., with no accurate info on how much contingency you WILL use, just to keep semi-cool.
Only many years of experience help us anticipate just how much into that extra, new safety "corner" we might go. Any "mission-oriented thinking" is no longer on the "list". Winter offers different factors, not just the question on whether we will be inside the de-icing holdover time, or can safely land at the next nasty frozen airport with a landing weight of about 108,000 pounds and a direct 15-knot crosswind.
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Question.
How much of a fuel guage error is allowed by the manufacturer of your aircraft before a callibration is needed?
1%,3% or 5%? On a full tank!
Is the error positive or negative?
And you want to take nothing extra!
How much of a fuel guage error is allowed by the manufacturer of your aircraft before a callibration is needed?
1%,3% or 5%? On a full tank!
Is the error positive or negative?
And you want to take nothing extra!
I've always scratched my head about the role of someone who doesn't jump on board with me for the flight, being involved in determining the fuel that will be loaded for that flight.
It stands to reason that any trained person can determine the legal minimum fuel to be carried on any particular flight, but to try and influence a Captain on his decision on what fuel load is appropriate? Does this only happen in the USA or it's colonies?
Obviously all of your flight-deck crew must be consulted and feel free to suggest or even advise on what might be carried. But in the end, the sole responsibility for the final decision can only rest with one person.
They say a camel was a horse that was designed by a committee decision...
In this regard, Continental has very right to remind Captains that due to high fuel prices that extra fuel should not be uplifted except where the Commander determines that extra fuel is required for sound operational reasons (as determined by the Captain).
It stands to reason that any trained person can determine the legal minimum fuel to be carried on any particular flight, but to try and influence a Captain on his decision on what fuel load is appropriate? Does this only happen in the USA or it's colonies?
Obviously all of your flight-deck crew must be consulted and feel free to suggest or even advise on what might be carried. But in the end, the sole responsibility for the final decision can only rest with one person.
They say a camel was a horse that was designed by a committee decision...
In this regard, Continental has very right to remind Captains that due to high fuel prices that extra fuel should not be uplifted except where the Commander determines that extra fuel is required for sound operational reasons (as determined by the Captain).