Two pilots allegedly fell asleep during red-eye flight
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Two pilots allegedly fell asleep during red-eye flight
http://www.yahoo.com/s/724787
How common is this and has anyone here ever fallen asleep at the wheel ?
"Hodas said the airline has received similar reports in the past and have addressed them, noting that pilot fatigue is a bigger issue in the industry than the public realizes."
Who would be culpable for this and what action do you think should be taken ?
How common is this and has anyone here ever fallen asleep at the wheel ?
"Hodas said the airline has received similar reports in the past and have addressed them, noting that pilot fatigue is a bigger issue in the industry than the public realizes."
Who would be culpable for this and what action do you think should be taken ?
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Last year a 777 from Vietnam Airlines bound for Francfort was detected off flight path over the Czech republic. No reply to frantic ATC calls, the government finally decided to send 2 fighters up. Fighters detected that both pilots were asleep. Passengers were frightened, when they saw the fighters in proximity of the airplane.
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Originally Posted by Farrell
From the culpability point of view, I would say that the responsibility lies with the journalist who more than likely hyped it up.
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Another aspect of this story is that you never want to report anything "anonomously" to a safety program that you wouldn't want to read in the papers. Despite all the assurances, some reporter will get "leaked" a copy of the crew roster for that date and the captain's well intended report will come back with possible disciplinary and certificate ramifications. The "amnesty" promised by these anonymous safety reporting programs may wear thin after the crew has been identified by the media.
Most modern Boeings, and probably Airbusses as well, have an alert which says something like "Pilot Response Required" after several minutes of inactivity on the FMC's and other cockpit knobs and switches. It continues to escalate with sounds, lights and messages if you don't cancel it in an attempt to knock the crew out of their daze.
Isn't there some kind of alarm that goes off at regular intervals which the pilots have to respond to to prevent this happening?
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Not all aircraft have this wake up call feature. But all do have CC's and all the PIC has to do is set the call during the briefing or at anytime using the interphone.
It happens to the best...
It happens to the best...
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Original report/incident occured in 2004...?....
https://extranet.nasdac.faa.gov/pls/...&NARR_VAR=TRUE
NARRATIVE
HAD BEEN DOING 4 MONTHS OF STAND-UP'S. LATE RPT, FLY TO DFW ARRIVE AT XA30 AND GO TO MOTEL AND REST APPROX 8 HRS. SHOW AT XH00, FLY BACK TO DEN. FOR THE MONTH OF MARCH, HAD A SCHEDULE CHANGE TO 'RED EYES,' WHICH CONSISTS OF LEAVING DEN AT XA50, FLY TO BWI AND 1 HR TURN-BACK TO DEN. NO REST, JUST STRAIGHT 7 HRS 55 MINS FLT TO BALTIMORE AND BACK. ON THIS PARTICULAR DAY (MAR/THU/04) AFTER 2 PREVIOUS RED EYES, THIS BEING THIRD RED EYE IN A ROW, LAST 45 MINS OF FLT I FELL ASLEEP AND SO DID THE FO. MISSED ALL CALLS FROM ATC TO MEET XING RESTR AT DANDD INTXN IN THE SE CORRIDOR TO DEN. THE XING RESTR BEING DANDD AT FL190 AND 250 KTS. INSTEAD, WE CROSSED DANDD AT FL350 AND MACH .82. I WOKE UP, WHY I DON'T KNOW, AND HEARD FRANTIC CALLS FROM ATC APPROX 5 DME INSIDE OF DANDD. I ANSWERED ATC AND ABIDED BY ALL INSTRUCTIONS TO GET DOWN. WOKE FO UP, STARTED DOWN TO FL220 AS INSTRUCTED, EXPEDITING TO FL220 AND THEN TO 14000 FT WITH TURNS TO 360 DEGS AND THEN TO 180 DEGS. FINISHED ALL CHKLISTS AND LANDED IN DEN WITH NO FURTHER INCIDENTS. WAS NOT TOLD TO CALL ATC, BUT DID FILE RPT WITH COMPANY. ATTRIBUTE INCIDENT TO PLT FATIGUE, AND HOPEFULLY COMPANY IS IN PROCESS OF CHANGING THESE TRIP PAIRINGS.
https://extranet.nasdac.faa.gov/pls/...&NARR_VAR=TRUE
NARRATIVE
HAD BEEN DOING 4 MONTHS OF STAND-UP'S. LATE RPT, FLY TO DFW ARRIVE AT XA30 AND GO TO MOTEL AND REST APPROX 8 HRS. SHOW AT XH00, FLY BACK TO DEN. FOR THE MONTH OF MARCH, HAD A SCHEDULE CHANGE TO 'RED EYES,' WHICH CONSISTS OF LEAVING DEN AT XA50, FLY TO BWI AND 1 HR TURN-BACK TO DEN. NO REST, JUST STRAIGHT 7 HRS 55 MINS FLT TO BALTIMORE AND BACK. ON THIS PARTICULAR DAY (MAR/THU/04) AFTER 2 PREVIOUS RED EYES, THIS BEING THIRD RED EYE IN A ROW, LAST 45 MINS OF FLT I FELL ASLEEP AND SO DID THE FO. MISSED ALL CALLS FROM ATC TO MEET XING RESTR AT DANDD INTXN IN THE SE CORRIDOR TO DEN. THE XING RESTR BEING DANDD AT FL190 AND 250 KTS. INSTEAD, WE CROSSED DANDD AT FL350 AND MACH .82. I WOKE UP, WHY I DON'T KNOW, AND HEARD FRANTIC CALLS FROM ATC APPROX 5 DME INSIDE OF DANDD. I ANSWERED ATC AND ABIDED BY ALL INSTRUCTIONS TO GET DOWN. WOKE FO UP, STARTED DOWN TO FL220 AS INSTRUCTED, EXPEDITING TO FL220 AND THEN TO 14000 FT WITH TURNS TO 360 DEGS AND THEN TO 180 DEGS. FINISHED ALL CHKLISTS AND LANDED IN DEN WITH NO FURTHER INCIDENTS. WAS NOT TOLD TO CALL ATC, BUT DID FILE RPT WITH COMPANY. ATTRIBUTE INCIDENT TO PLT FATIGUE, AND HOPEFULLY COMPANY IS IN PROCESS OF CHANGING THESE TRIP PAIRINGS.
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If the crew had not woken up I guess the aircraft would have entered holding over Denver like the Athens incident depending how the Nav was set up. I wonder how many turns it would have taken before a FA would have investigated. Assuming at least one of them was awake.
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Forget possible fatigue for the moment, and put 'CRM' to work...Capt: "I'll take ten, you got it". F/O responds, and then actually stays awake.
This scenario can be repeated in reverse as conditions allow.
This way, at least one is awake.
Can it be this easy?
Well, in over forty years of professional flying, I have personally found it works to perfection, especially on long haul.
If the First Officer looks like he is dozing off, I will suggest he take ten.
It really is as simple as that.
Now, as to the fatigue issue, red eyes are always a problem, and scheduling needs to address this issue without delay.
In the pilots report, it mentions DEN-BWI-DEN as an especially long flight.
Nonsense.
Day or night, it certainly is not excessive, but it does lead to fatigue issues, due to the time of night.
Scheduling...fix the schedule.
Pilots, employ a little 'CRM'.
There that's settled, what's the next problem?
This scenario can be repeated in reverse as conditions allow.
This way, at least one is awake.
Can it be this easy?
Well, in over forty years of professional flying, I have personally found it works to perfection, especially on long haul.
If the First Officer looks like he is dozing off, I will suggest he take ten.
It really is as simple as that.
Now, as to the fatigue issue, red eyes are always a problem, and scheduling needs to address this issue without delay.
In the pilots report, it mentions DEN-BWI-DEN as an especially long flight.
Nonsense.
Day or night, it certainly is not excessive, but it does lead to fatigue issues, due to the time of night.
Scheduling...fix the schedule.
Pilots, employ a little 'CRM'.
There that's settled, what's the next problem?
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That's why the cabin crew must have contact with flight deck every 15 min., no matter if someone of FA just enters in the cockpit or simply makes a short call ''captain ,anymore tea or coffee ?'' .....
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All airplanes in a now-defunct Swiss airline used to have "egg-timer" type wind-up clocks installed somewhere on the pedestal...
Now, at nap-time, you would set this alarm at something like 15 to 25 minutes, thus ensuring your own wake-up if the buddy supposed to stay awake did not. Simple and effective.
We did not like cabin crew checking into the cockpit all too often during the night, so as not to wake the resting pilot during his "mini sleep"
The reason we did not do more than about 25 minutes of sleep at the time are well-known. Drop into a full sleep cycle with REM-phase, and your awareness is more likely than not shot for a good while even after the wake up... short naps however work magic on those pesky red-eyes...
Both pilots nodding off during cruise happens... it's not nice, but it happens. So ensuring your own wake-up when napping just makes sense, to save major embarassment, or worse.
Now, at nap-time, you would set this alarm at something like 15 to 25 minutes, thus ensuring your own wake-up if the buddy supposed to stay awake did not. Simple and effective.
We did not like cabin crew checking into the cockpit all too often during the night, so as not to wake the resting pilot during his "mini sleep"
The reason we did not do more than about 25 minutes of sleep at the time are well-known. Drop into a full sleep cycle with REM-phase, and your awareness is more likely than not shot for a good while even after the wake up... short naps however work magic on those pesky red-eyes...
Both pilots nodding off during cruise happens... it's not nice, but it happens. So ensuring your own wake-up when napping just makes sense, to save major embarassment, or worse.
"would say that the responsibility lies with the journalist who more than likely hyped it up"
Incorrect. I watched the Captain of said flight give this testimony to Congress.
Incorrect. I watched the Captain of said flight give this testimony to Congress.
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Hi ya,
have a look into the report of the czech authorities about the incident with the HVN 777:
http://www.uzpln.cz/zazpra06/z105.pdf
There is no single word, that the pilots fell asleep. Indeed, this is the best explanation for their behavior, but it is far away from being "official".
Just a little bit hair spitting....
have a look into the report of the czech authorities about the incident with the HVN 777:
http://www.uzpln.cz/zazpra06/z105.pdf
There is no single word, that the pilots fell asleep. Indeed, this is the best explanation for their behavior, but it is far away from being "official".
Just a little bit hair spitting....
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Freight dogs have no cabin crew with which to check on them. Try departing at 0 dark thirty (example-ANC/NRT), flying west for 8 boring hrs constantly chased by a sunrise.
Remember Lindy (Lindbergh)? - He would tie one finger to a wrench with string, then place both on the glare shield. When he fell asleep. his hand would fall, and with it the wrench.
Tough way to go.
Remember Lindy (Lindbergh)? - He would tie one finger to a wrench with string, then place both on the glare shield. When he fell asleep. his hand would fall, and with it the wrench.
Tough way to go.
Last edited by L-38; 2nd Nov 2007 at 17:17.
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fatigue
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6236810.stm
to me at least, this seemed to be the tip of the iceberg
Ian Shoesmith
BBC News
to me at least, this seemed to be the tip of the iceberg
Ian Shoesmith
BBC News
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Must agree with 411A (the first time 
).
There is hardly any Asian airline that has a proper rest policy in it's books. When asking management, they strongly disagree and say that their pilots do not sleep and are never tired.
When you fly with some Asian pilots, you start that CRM thing and tell them to have a controlled nap (because they really don't look fresh), they don't admit that they are tired, just to find out moments later that they are well asleep. Some even have very sophisticated ways of disguising their rest in a sitting position that looks straight and upright - only the eyes are closed. Admiting a physical weakness is very hard, you could loose your face.
Dani
).There is hardly any Asian airline that has a proper rest policy in it's books. When asking management, they strongly disagree and say that their pilots do not sleep and are never tired.
When you fly with some Asian pilots, you start that CRM thing and tell them to have a controlled nap (because they really don't look fresh), they don't admit that they are tired, just to find out moments later that they are well asleep. Some even have very sophisticated ways of disguising their rest in a sitting position that looks straight and upright - only the eyes are closed. Admiting a physical weakness is very hard, you could loose your face.
Dani
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Originally Posted by airman13
That's why the cabin crew must have contact with flight deck every 15 min., no matter if someone of FA just enters in the cockpit or simply makes a short call ''captain ,anymore tea or coffee ?'' .....