The Economist: Pilot Pay Rising
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Just thought I'd remind everyone that this particular debate (ie pilots reckoning they are worth more than they perhaps are) has been going on - mmm, well, since Pontius was a Pilate.
I'm reminded of two urban legends in particular - one was the saying when the B747 was launched, that the reason for the hump was so that the Captain could sit on his wallet; and the other is that one has to avoid the glint of the sun off all the BA Captain's swimming pools in the Ascot area when taking off from 28 at LHR...
Sapco2 - I am perfectly calm, thank you. As for Tilii, when he's run so much as one airline (which will be one third the number I have done) then he may compare our managerial skills.
I'm reminded of two urban legends in particular - one was the saying when the B747 was launched, that the reason for the hump was so that the Captain could sit on his wallet; and the other is that one has to avoid the glint of the sun off all the BA Captain's swimming pools in the Ascot area when taking off from 28 at LHR...
Sapco2 - I am perfectly calm, thank you.
As for Tilii, when he's run so much as one airline (which will be one third the number I have done) then he may compare our managerial skills.
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Guvnor : What you actually said was this....
"As for your grasp of operating economics - wow! Sure, it may have cost the airline GBP15K for your share of the simulator. But what about the thousands - and believe me, they are thousands - of man hours that will be invested in you to get you to the point where you are, in their view, up to an acceptable enough standard where they can trust you with the aircraft? And the cost of the biannual sim checks etc which I somehow doubt that you'll be paying out of your own pocket? Nope, laddie - it's one heck of a lot more than GBP15k!!! "
Firstly, I was cleared to line ages ago. Which means that someone somewhere clearly trusts me with the a/c. I require 2 sim checks and 1 line check per year. HARDLY THOUSANDS OF MAN HOURS !!!
Secondly, my response was exclaimation at your quote "what about the thousands - and believe me, they are thousands - of man hours that will be invested in you to get you to the point where you are, in their view, up to an acceptable enough standard where they can trust you with the aircraft?".
Your average intelligent person would infer from that quote that you were probably talking about either :- a) Accumulated experience whilst on line ? - Which is a side effect of operating commercial flights or b) Hours spent training ? - Which are included in the cost of a rating conversion BTW.
The company pays for 2 sim checks per year and 1 line check flight. The line check flight costs the company hardly anything, Only my flight duty expenses. Sure they pay for the sim - but nobody has any choice there (CAA thing) - We gain nothing (career wise) personally from being checked bi-anually. i.e. it does not improve our chances of getting a better paid job / make us more marketable. It just means that we don't get the sack.
Everyone knows that everything to do with aviation is expensive.
All people here are saying is that we don't feel that we are on a 'massive' unrealistic salary for what we do. In fact people are saying that the salary is a 'tad' below par for the levels of qualification and professionalism, risk (financially & medically), anti-social hours, lack of life stability, etc.... I could go on....
I have told you personally the level of my suffering financially (ignoring the stress and heart ache.) that I undertook to get where I am today. I am personally suffering financially until I have paid off all my debts. I do not personally feel that I have an excessive lifestlye - far from it.
Hopefully my last post on the subject.
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Invalid Delete Say "Late Pax : Off with their Heads !!!"
"....OK, well start with their bags then..."
"As for your grasp of operating economics - wow! Sure, it may have cost the airline GBP15K for your share of the simulator. But what about the thousands - and believe me, they are thousands - of man hours that will be invested in you to get you to the point where you are, in their view, up to an acceptable enough standard where they can trust you with the aircraft? And the cost of the biannual sim checks etc which I somehow doubt that you'll be paying out of your own pocket? Nope, laddie - it's one heck of a lot more than GBP15k!!! "
Firstly, I was cleared to line ages ago. Which means that someone somewhere clearly trusts me with the a/c. I require 2 sim checks and 1 line check per year. HARDLY THOUSANDS OF MAN HOURS !!!
Secondly, my response was exclaimation at your quote "what about the thousands - and believe me, they are thousands - of man hours that will be invested in you to get you to the point where you are, in their view, up to an acceptable enough standard where they can trust you with the aircraft?".
Your average intelligent person would infer from that quote that you were probably talking about either :- a) Accumulated experience whilst on line ? - Which is a side effect of operating commercial flights or b) Hours spent training ? - Which are included in the cost of a rating conversion BTW.
The company pays for 2 sim checks per year and 1 line check flight. The line check flight costs the company hardly anything, Only my flight duty expenses. Sure they pay for the sim - but nobody has any choice there (CAA thing) - We gain nothing (career wise) personally from being checked bi-anually. i.e. it does not improve our chances of getting a better paid job / make us more marketable. It just means that we don't get the sack.
Everyone knows that everything to do with aviation is expensive.
All people here are saying is that we don't feel that we are on a 'massive' unrealistic salary for what we do. In fact people are saying that the salary is a 'tad' below par for the levels of qualification and professionalism, risk (financially & medically), anti-social hours, lack of life stability, etc.... I could go on....
I have told you personally the level of my suffering financially (ignoring the stress and heart ache.) that I undertook to get where I am today. I am personally suffering financially until I have paid off all my debts. I do not personally feel that I have an excessive lifestlye - far from it.
Hopefully my last post on the subject.
------------------
Invalid Delete Say "Late Pax : Off with their Heads !!!"
"....OK, well start with their bags then..."
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Interesting thread.
One criteria I was given years ago for comparing jobs/salaries/airlines etc. was the amount of time you had to work to earn a litre of gasoline (ie what you put in your car to make it go!).
What I have found working as a pilot with an airline is that there are a lot of hidden costs:-
Almost essential to have a car (how do you get to work at 0200 when no public transport is running?)
If you work from somewhere like Heathrow the only property that you are likely to be able to afford is at least one and a half hours commute from the airport.
If I am working as hard as The Guvnor suggests (100 hours/month flying) then I will have to hire in people to do jobs for me at home which I could normally do myself.
Perhaps others could add to this list.
As a pilot money does matter to me but so does "quality of life". Since I entered the profession in 1970 this has definitely got worse - working hours are much longer and net remuneration seems to have got worse.
Would you recommend your son or daughter to enter the profession?
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One criteria I was given years ago for comparing jobs/salaries/airlines etc. was the amount of time you had to work to earn a litre of gasoline (ie what you put in your car to make it go!).
What I have found working as a pilot with an airline is that there are a lot of hidden costs:-
Almost essential to have a car (how do you get to work at 0200 when no public transport is running?)
If you work from somewhere like Heathrow the only property that you are likely to be able to afford is at least one and a half hours commute from the airport.
If I am working as hard as The Guvnor suggests (100 hours/month flying) then I will have to hire in people to do jobs for me at home which I could normally do myself.
Perhaps others could add to this list.
As a pilot money does matter to me but so does "quality of life". Since I entered the profession in 1970 this has definitely got worse - working hours are much longer and net remuneration seems to have got worse.
Would you recommend your son or daughter to enter the profession?
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Guvnor, always the paranoid, always looking for a conspiracy against himself, as far as I know I have three things in common with invalid delete; - 1. A pilot 2. A member of MENSA and last but not least the inability to spell (unless my great works of literature have been passed through a spell checker!)
I consider it the last resort of some of the contributors on this forum (yep that’s you Guv old boy) to trivialise an otherwise valid point of view by focusing on a few spelling errors.
Which is what provoked me to respond in the first instant!
I consider it the last resort of some of the contributors on this forum (yep that’s you Guv old boy) to trivialise an otherwise valid point of view by focusing on a few spelling errors.
Which is what provoked me to respond in the first instant!
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M.Mouse - one was sold; one was effectively closed by the local government and the third lost its 90% of the value of its money overnight due to a devaluation.
Invalid Delete - I'm deeply impressed. You're obviously the very first person to come into an airline with a frozen ATPL that's needed absolutely no backup or input from anyone else in the 1,000 or so hours on type that the average airline (and their insurers) feel they need you to have before counting you as 'fully qualified on type' - training captains, line check pilots, operations department, instructors (sim and otherwise) HR, etc etc. Oh, and of course aircraft time as well (unless your company uses Level D sims exclusively without any 'hands on' training). How did you do it? I take my hat off to you and unreservedly retract my previous comments - as you've made all these people redundant, you very obviously do deserve a serious pay increase. I'm also very impressed to see that you obviously feel that you can't learn anything more from any possibly (though obviously this is unlikely) more experienced pilots than you as part of your biannual refreshers. Keep up the good work!!
CRP5 - my sole point was that you responded to a post clearly intended for someone else; that's all.
Invalid Delete - I'm deeply impressed. You're obviously the very first person to come into an airline with a frozen ATPL that's needed absolutely no backup or input from anyone else in the 1,000 or so hours on type that the average airline (and their insurers) feel they need you to have before counting you as 'fully qualified on type' - training captains, line check pilots, operations department, instructors (sim and otherwise) HR, etc etc. Oh, and of course aircraft time as well (unless your company uses Level D sims exclusively without any 'hands on' training). How did you do it? I take my hat off to you and unreservedly retract my previous comments - as you've made all these people redundant, you very obviously do deserve a serious pay increase. I'm also very impressed to see that you obviously feel that you can't learn anything more from any possibly (though obviously this is unlikely) more experienced pilots than you as part of your biannual refreshers. Keep up the good work!!
CRP5 - my sole point was that you responded to a post clearly intended for someone else; that's all.
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The Guvnor says of his three 'airlines' (and I use the term very loosely here) that, and I quote:
"one was sold; one was effectively closed by the local government and the third lost its 90% of the value of its money overnight due to a devaluation."
By his own bold claims, then, he has none of the requisite managerial skills to either run (or own) an airline.
I rest my case. What a loser.
"one was sold; one was effectively closed by the local government and the third lost its 90% of the value of its money overnight due to a devaluation."
By his own bold claims, then, he has none of the requisite managerial skills to either run (or own) an airline.
I rest my case. What a loser.
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Hohohohoho
Guvnor's 3 airlines huh?
In Nigeria he claimed to have flown 4000hours as copilot on B707 and DC8, then he tells Ryosuke, the author of http://flytristar.tripod.com/article/art06.html that he flew those hours as a CAPTAIN. He's told us all on this forum that his licence there was obtained illegally, but has never been able to provide any details about ANY professional flight training, let alone type ratings. And at the same time he claims to have been the manager of this airline. Oh, and no-one else has even been able to confirm that he was even there!
City Connexion in Burundi was a front for gold smuggling, to quote Turner Bostwick the GD of Let "I don't think we had a real player". NO wonder it was "effectively closed by the local government".
We've all laughed ourselves silly over the fantasy websites for the virtual Africargo and CalWings, and his much vaunted CL44's had nothing to do with him!
I'd just like to know which of his "airlines" lost 90% of it's value.
Guvnor's 3 airlines huh?
In Nigeria he claimed to have flown 4000hours as copilot on B707 and DC8, then he tells Ryosuke, the author of http://flytristar.tripod.com/article/art06.html that he flew those hours as a CAPTAIN. He's told us all on this forum that his licence there was obtained illegally, but has never been able to provide any details about ANY professional flight training, let alone type ratings. And at the same time he claims to have been the manager of this airline. Oh, and no-one else has even been able to confirm that he was even there!
City Connexion in Burundi was a front for gold smuggling, to quote Turner Bostwick the GD of Let "I don't think we had a real player". NO wonder it was "effectively closed by the local government".
We've all laughed ourselves silly over the fantasy websites for the virtual Africargo and CalWings, and his much vaunted CL44's had nothing to do with him!
I'd just like to know which of his "airlines" lost 90% of it's value.
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Guvnor,
What are you on about re: thousands of hours of training for new pilots in an airline? This is simply not true. For example, my airline hires pilots of all experience levels from 250 hour Cherokee to thousands of hours fast-jet-military pilots. They all go through exactly the same training programme. The programme includes groundschool, sim training, a few circuits in the real thing and then some line training sectors and you're off. It is exactly the same for all pilots regardless of experience. Do you honestly think that the 250 hour pilot is going to be flying with a training captain until he unfreezes his ATPL?? Do you think that the 250 hour pilot has regular checks above and beyond what an experienced pilot has? Do you think that the 250 hour pilot has extra sim sessions above and beyond the twice-yearly sim check and annual line check? Well I have news for you because they do not. What is this "backup" you speak of re training captains, HR etc? Maybe you mean if you are having difficulties during an OPC/LPC or something, but this backup is provided regardless of level of experience, and the "new" recruits bar one or two do not need to make use of this facility at all. Even if they do, I do not see how this could cost much more than a couple of hundred pounds for an extra hour or so in the sim. In fact, low hour pilots are paid less than Full-ATPL pilots so the company actually saves a great deal of money, especially with pensions factored in. You obviously do not have a very good grasp of how modern airline training departments work in this country. Yes the first few thousand hours of flying on the line provides a new pilot a lot of very important and valuable experience, but not at a cost to the company. They are saving money due to the significantly lower salaries they pay low-hour pilots.
Lazlo
What are you on about re: thousands of hours of training for new pilots in an airline? This is simply not true. For example, my airline hires pilots of all experience levels from 250 hour Cherokee to thousands of hours fast-jet-military pilots. They all go through exactly the same training programme. The programme includes groundschool, sim training, a few circuits in the real thing and then some line training sectors and you're off. It is exactly the same for all pilots regardless of experience. Do you honestly think that the 250 hour pilot is going to be flying with a training captain until he unfreezes his ATPL?? Do you think that the 250 hour pilot has regular checks above and beyond what an experienced pilot has? Do you think that the 250 hour pilot has extra sim sessions above and beyond the twice-yearly sim check and annual line check? Well I have news for you because they do not. What is this "backup" you speak of re training captains, HR etc? Maybe you mean if you are having difficulties during an OPC/LPC or something, but this backup is provided regardless of level of experience, and the "new" recruits bar one or two do not need to make use of this facility at all. Even if they do, I do not see how this could cost much more than a couple of hundred pounds for an extra hour or so in the sim. In fact, low hour pilots are paid less than Full-ATPL pilots so the company actually saves a great deal of money, especially with pensions factored in. You obviously do not have a very good grasp of how modern airline training departments work in this country. Yes the first few thousand hours of flying on the line provides a new pilot a lot of very important and valuable experience, but not at a cost to the company. They are saving money due to the significantly lower salaries they pay low-hour pilots.
Lazlo
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Normally, I try to disregard Who?'s ravings, but as this affects a third party I have had to respond. At no time was City Connexion ever involved in any gold smuggling and to insinuate otherwise is libellous. The Belgian group which owned the operations in Burundi is rather litigatious, as well as being extremely wealthy.
Lazlo - all I was referring to is the infrastructure that all airlines have. And yes, even though you might not be aware of it, airlines do tend to keep a much closer (and therefore more manpower intensive) eye on guys with minimal hours - and if they don't, I'm sure their insurers will be most interested to learn of this!
Lazlo - all I was referring to is the infrastructure that all airlines have. And yes, even though you might not be aware of it, airlines do tend to keep a much closer (and therefore more manpower intensive) eye on guys with minimal hours - and if they don't, I'm sure their insurers will be most interested to learn of this!
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Well come on Guvnor.
Once again you have claimed grand things about yourself, and once again not able to back anything up. I note again your "threats" of litigation. What about the Sunday Mail, what about Ryosuke, what about Danny, ... all of whom have been given the sideways threat of litigation by you. Bully boy tactics huh?
So are we to assume that you have no arguments with everything else I posted?
- No argument that you have posted on this board that you flew as copilot for 4000hrs on B707 and DC8?
- Do you agree that you emailed author R.Yano claiming 4000hs as CAPTAIN on B707 and DC8 aircraft?
- Do you remember posting on this forum that you obtained a Nigerian ALTP through fraudulent means?
- And please, we're still awaiting anyone to be able to place you in Nigeria (other than your, as our moderators stated, "bedmate" JetBok)
- I must assume you know T.Bostwick's quote on City Connexion?
- And what about ANY flight undertaken by Africargo?
We've all read your self-glorifying posting Guvnor. You're not an industry insider, nor an airline CEO, just a sad little dreamer.
Once again you have claimed grand things about yourself, and once again not able to back anything up. I note again your "threats" of litigation. What about the Sunday Mail, what about Ryosuke, what about Danny, ... all of whom have been given the sideways threat of litigation by you. Bully boy tactics huh?
So are we to assume that you have no arguments with everything else I posted?
- No argument that you have posted on this board that you flew as copilot for 4000hrs on B707 and DC8?
- Do you agree that you emailed author R.Yano claiming 4000hs as CAPTAIN on B707 and DC8 aircraft?
- Do you remember posting on this forum that you obtained a Nigerian ALTP through fraudulent means?
- And please, we're still awaiting anyone to be able to place you in Nigeria (other than your, as our moderators stated, "bedmate" JetBok)
- I must assume you know T.Bostwick's quote on City Connexion?
- And what about ANY flight undertaken by Africargo?
We've all read your self-glorifying posting Guvnor. You're not an industry insider, nor an airline CEO, just a sad little dreamer.
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Hey Gunvor sounds to me like you are a man who must have the last word! Do you usually resort to legal threats when things are not going your way?. As a new boy to PPRuNe, I'm not very convinced with your arguments either. 2110 posts since July 1999 seems like paranoia to me, although, I bet they were fun to read!
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And th Guv's figures of salaries being 33% of airline costs is extremely misleading. He would like everyone to beleive that these are crew costs when in fact they are TOTAL employee costs. ie Customer Service, Marketing, Ticketing, Sales, HR, Admin, Accounts, Crewing, Ops, Engineering,IT, managers and their tea ladies, etc,etc.
Pilots salaries equate to about 3% of expenditure only.
Pilots salaries equate to about 3% of expenditure only.
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Responses to ideas are better than responses to people. Who cares if Guv is puffing up his resume?
One big threat to pilot salaries is the extraordinary impact technology has on the difficulty of performing the job. For now, the big bucks go to 777 jocks who, to be honest, don't have to do very much. How long before system operator/pilots replace pilots? Nudging up on 50 years I don't see my career giving way to automation, but I'm not so sure about it for the 20-somethings starting out in aviation.
There's a lot to be said for pilot groups teaming up with management to keep the company successful. But it only takes one betrayal on either side to poison the deal. I almost wish the United deal didn't raise the bar so much that my company will be forced to match a deal I'm afraid it may not be able to afford. I'd much rather have the next ten years and my retirement funded by a going concern. When major carrier pilots escape the rhetoric, the fact that we do very well becomes more clear. The real soldiers who need the boost are the regional pilots and those at the bottom of the seniority list. Comair is fighting that battle now for all pilots. I believe ALPA should focus on the low end and forego maximum effort for the $300 whale captain, who already has it made.
One big threat to pilot salaries is the extraordinary impact technology has on the difficulty of performing the job. For now, the big bucks go to 777 jocks who, to be honest, don't have to do very much. How long before system operator/pilots replace pilots? Nudging up on 50 years I don't see my career giving way to automation, but I'm not so sure about it for the 20-somethings starting out in aviation.
There's a lot to be said for pilot groups teaming up with management to keep the company successful. But it only takes one betrayal on either side to poison the deal. I almost wish the United deal didn't raise the bar so much that my company will be forced to match a deal I'm afraid it may not be able to afford. I'd much rather have the next ten years and my retirement funded by a going concern. When major carrier pilots escape the rhetoric, the fact that we do very well becomes more clear. The real soldiers who need the boost are the regional pilots and those at the bottom of the seniority list. Comair is fighting that battle now for all pilots. I believe ALPA should focus on the low end and forego maximum effort for the $300 whale captain, who already has it made.
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Guvnor : May I suggest that you re-read my posting until you comprehend it completely.
If you have trouble with any of the long words CRP5 will help you.
Until then good luck with your PPL.
"1,000 or so hours on type that the average airline (and their insurers) feel they need you to have before counting you as 'fully qualified on type'" - What utter rubbish. You are either qualified on type or you are not, 'laddie'.
The more you write, the less knowledge of the subject you reveal you possess. I suspect you have little or no 'real experience at all' - just 'snippets' that you have read here.
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Invalid Delete Say "Late Pax : Off with their Heads !!!"
"....OK, well start with their bags then..."
If you have trouble with any of the long words CRP5 will help you.
Until then good luck with your PPL.
"1,000 or so hours on type that the average airline (and their insurers) feel they need you to have before counting you as 'fully qualified on type'" - What utter rubbish. You are either qualified on type or you are not, 'laddie'.
The more you write, the less knowledge of the subject you reveal you possess. I suspect you have little or no 'real experience at all' - just 'snippets' that you have read here.
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Invalid Delete Say "Late Pax : Off with their Heads !!!"
"....OK, well start with their bags then..."