The Economist: Pilot Pay Rising
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Exeng : OK
Scottie : I couldn't agree with you more. There are other professions that deserve more money too like doctors, nurses, teachers etc, but that is a whole new can of worms. I certainly considder myself more professionally qualified and responsible than a £60k or £70k 'Brick Counter' - Sorry, "Quantity Surveyor".
Sensible :
No, I don't think that my heating engineer suddenly becomes worth a lot of money when my heating breaks down - But HE does. And he charges me extra for it. Plus when he doesn't turn up at said time he probably won't get a stripping down from anyone. Another point is that my plumber told me that he tries to clear £500 per day (excluding emergencies) - So that puts your humble plumber on £30,000 pa plus extra 'bonuses' for call outs.
Simmy : Not so.
Mowgli : And I thought that me reaching my £1,000 overdraught limit every month was unusual - You are not alone believe me, there are lots of us out here struggling in the 'bayback zone' !
OzDude :
So put the fares up 3% and we can all have a 50% pay rise - Yippee !!!
Scottie : I couldn't agree with you more. There are other professions that deserve more money too like doctors, nurses, teachers etc, but that is a whole new can of worms. I certainly considder myself more professionally qualified and responsible than a £60k or £70k 'Brick Counter' - Sorry, "Quantity Surveyor".
Sensible :
No, I don't think that my heating engineer suddenly becomes worth a lot of money when my heating breaks down - But HE does. And he charges me extra for it. Plus when he doesn't turn up at said time he probably won't get a stripping down from anyone. Another point is that my plumber told me that he tries to clear £500 per day (excluding emergencies) - So that puts your humble plumber on £30,000 pa plus extra 'bonuses' for call outs.
Simmy : Not so.
Mowgli : And I thought that me reaching my £1,000 overdraught limit every month was unusual - You are not alone believe me, there are lots of us out here struggling in the 'bayback zone' !
OzDude :
So put the fares up 3% and we can all have a 50% pay rise - Yippee !!!
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I heard a phrase used once that I think is quite appropriate both in the context of pilots bargaining for more money from their respective airlines and to those new "inexperienced" recruits moving to greener pastures with some hours under their belt.
"You find a dog in the street, homeless and starving, so you take him home with you. You give him a home and feed him - that dog will be loyal to you until its dying day. That is where dogs are different from humans".
So - fellow pilots - are we dogs?
Lazlo
"You find a dog in the street, homeless and starving, so you take him home with you. You give him a home and feed him - that dog will be loyal to you until its dying day. That is where dogs are different from humans".
So - fellow pilots - are we dogs?
Lazlo
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The reasons we would like to think why we are worth a lot more, are many and varied - the facts are:
- there's a high "cull rate" from first flight (ie. the very first flight as an abinitio) to final clearance to line checkout on a jet;
- there's a modest attrition rate, due to medical related problems - during employment;
- the aviation industry notoriously suffers from peaks and troughs, and during the troughs management have NO hesitation in reducing our conditions;
- the peaks are few, and far between, resulting usually in an OVER-supply of pilots, willing to work for LESS than the going rate to gain experience, so that they can move on and up to a better position, where other less experienced pilots are waiting to work for less, to gain experience....
The fact is, it has become a "dog-eat-dog" world, and as we, the pilot group are aware, NOW is the time for us to take 3 steps forward, because as sure as night follows day, we will be pushed 2 1/2 steps back in the not too distant future.
- there's a high "cull rate" from first flight (ie. the very first flight as an abinitio) to final clearance to line checkout on a jet;
- there's a modest attrition rate, due to medical related problems - during employment;
- the aviation industry notoriously suffers from peaks and troughs, and during the troughs management have NO hesitation in reducing our conditions;
- the peaks are few, and far between, resulting usually in an OVER-supply of pilots, willing to work for LESS than the going rate to gain experience, so that they can move on and up to a better position, where other less experienced pilots are waiting to work for less, to gain experience....
The fact is, it has become a "dog-eat-dog" world, and as we, the pilot group are aware, NOW is the time for us to take 3 steps forward, because as sure as night follows day, we will be pushed 2 1/2 steps back in the not too distant future.
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Invalid Delete - Strange how many pilots think they can run airlines. Many have tried - the overwhelming majority have failed.
Also, for an alleged Mensa member and university graduate, your spelling leaves something to be desired - "overdraught" indeed!
Your grasp of the real world is also rather lacking - you say that you have given up two year's salary plus GBP40K to get to where you are. Well, on that basis, your average doctor should be on around a million quid a year as they have to give up seven years' worth of earning power - plus pay their fees and other costs - before they become qualified.
As for your grasp of operating economics - wow! Sure, it may have cost the airline GBP15K for your share of the simulator. But what about the thousands - and believe me, they are thousands - of man hours that will be invested in you to get you to the point where you are, in their view, up to an acceptable enough standard where they can trust you with the aircraft? And the cost of the biannual sim checks etc which I somehow doubt that you'll be paying out of your own pocket? Nope, laddie - it's one heck of a lot more than GBP15k!!!
Pilots, like it or not, are nothing more than highly skilled commercial bus and truck drivers. Fact. There are many jobs with greater responsibility - including aviation related jobs such as licenced engineers and air traffic controllers - which pay far less. An ATCO, in a single shift, will be responsible for more lives; more aircraft; and more dollar value than you as a pilot will be in a month. Does this mean s/he earns thirty times your salary? Does it cobblers! Yet, without that ATCO guiding you into LGW, LHR, JFK, ORD, LAX etc you - and your pax - would very rapidly become crispy critters.
Sure, pay comes down to basic economics - when supply < demand, pay demands are high; and when supply > demand then you'll be lucky if you have a job in the first place.
Strangely, that applies to all areas of employment - not just aviation; and with the excellent job the unions are in the process of doing where people are being laid off (eg Comair) or where thanks to their insane demands the crippling cost of high overheads will force companies to cut back or collapse the job market will once again become saturated with pilots. It's cyclical - it happens with great regularity, roughly once every decade.
Sapco2 - I agree that management of all companies should morally be responsible to their employees and the owners of their company - the shareholders. Unfortunately, all to often it doesn't work; but in many ways it's those groups - employees and shareholders - that have themselves to blame.
Scottie - so every person joining your company is already type rated with at least 1,000 hours on type then? If so, you're right - it doesn't cost your company anything.
411A/Sensible Spot on!
Kaptin M - but surely that unsociable lifestyle also applies to cabin crew ... are you really claiming they earn as much as you do? If not, why not, as they have to put up with the same disruptions to home life?
604Driver - you're right; and for the life of me I can't see why, when other professional training expenses are allowed against tax; why flight crew training isn't. Seriously, this should be a question for all those politicians who expect us to elect them in the next couple of weeks, I think! Why hasn't BALPA ever done anything about it?
When you join a company, you're usually offered a contract. This states your pay, hours, and working conditions. You have a choice - sign or walk away. Now, unless someone is seriously going to tell me that a gun was held at their head and they were forced to sign - what's the problem? Of course, things change when the company unilaterally changes things top its benefit; but until then, you have a moral responsibility to abide by your contractual commitment.
OzDude - What a load of twaddle! Pilots are far from being the "most regulated" group - and they are far from being "unique".
I agree with you that poor management brings companies down - but as I said yet again above, it's down to employees and shareholders to do something about it - as happened at Continental. You seem to rather conveniently forget about that!
You should also reread my earlier post where I carefully defined that 100 hours as being 'productive' time - ie the time that you're actually doing what you're paid to do (fly from A to B). Sure, there's a fair number of hours either side of that which every employee in every company has to endure - again, nothing 'unique' there, cobber!
RRAAMJET - and for a moment I thought you saw the light there!
Remember, Delta have just gone through the same thing with DALPA; and I think that's what's boosted Comair's demands so high.
Also, for an alleged Mensa member and university graduate, your spelling leaves something to be desired - "overdraught" indeed!
Your grasp of the real world is also rather lacking - you say that you have given up two year's salary plus GBP40K to get to where you are. Well, on that basis, your average doctor should be on around a million quid a year as they have to give up seven years' worth of earning power - plus pay their fees and other costs - before they become qualified.
As for your grasp of operating economics - wow! Sure, it may have cost the airline GBP15K for your share of the simulator. But what about the thousands - and believe me, they are thousands - of man hours that will be invested in you to get you to the point where you are, in their view, up to an acceptable enough standard where they can trust you with the aircraft? And the cost of the biannual sim checks etc which I somehow doubt that you'll be paying out of your own pocket? Nope, laddie - it's one heck of a lot more than GBP15k!!!
Pilots, like it or not, are nothing more than highly skilled commercial bus and truck drivers. Fact. There are many jobs with greater responsibility - including aviation related jobs such as licenced engineers and air traffic controllers - which pay far less. An ATCO, in a single shift, will be responsible for more lives; more aircraft; and more dollar value than you as a pilot will be in a month. Does this mean s/he earns thirty times your salary? Does it cobblers! Yet, without that ATCO guiding you into LGW, LHR, JFK, ORD, LAX etc you - and your pax - would very rapidly become crispy critters.
Sure, pay comes down to basic economics - when supply < demand, pay demands are high; and when supply > demand then you'll be lucky if you have a job in the first place.
Strangely, that applies to all areas of employment - not just aviation; and with the excellent job the unions are in the process of doing where people are being laid off (eg Comair) or where thanks to their insane demands the crippling cost of high overheads will force companies to cut back or collapse the job market will once again become saturated with pilots. It's cyclical - it happens with great regularity, roughly once every decade.
Sapco2 - I agree that management of all companies should morally be responsible to their employees and the owners of their company - the shareholders. Unfortunately, all to often it doesn't work; but in many ways it's those groups - employees and shareholders - that have themselves to blame.
Scottie - so every person joining your company is already type rated with at least 1,000 hours on type then? If so, you're right - it doesn't cost your company anything.
411A/Sensible Spot on!
Kaptin M - but surely that unsociable lifestyle also applies to cabin crew ... are you really claiming they earn as much as you do? If not, why not, as they have to put up with the same disruptions to home life?
604Driver - you're right; and for the life of me I can't see why, when other professional training expenses are allowed against tax; why flight crew training isn't. Seriously, this should be a question for all those politicians who expect us to elect them in the next couple of weeks, I think! Why hasn't BALPA ever done anything about it?
When you join a company, you're usually offered a contract. This states your pay, hours, and working conditions. You have a choice - sign or walk away. Now, unless someone is seriously going to tell me that a gun was held at their head and they were forced to sign - what's the problem? Of course, things change when the company unilaterally changes things top its benefit; but until then, you have a moral responsibility to abide by your contractual commitment.
OzDude - What a load of twaddle! Pilots are far from being the "most regulated" group - and they are far from being "unique".
I agree with you that poor management brings companies down - but as I said yet again above, it's down to employees and shareholders to do something about it - as happened at Continental. You seem to rather conveniently forget about that!
You should also reread my earlier post where I carefully defined that 100 hours as being 'productive' time - ie the time that you're actually doing what you're paid to do (fly from A to B). Sure, there's a fair number of hours either side of that which every employee in every company has to endure - again, nothing 'unique' there, cobber!
RRAAMJET - and for a moment I thought you saw the light there!
Remember, Delta have just gone through the same thing with DALPA; and I think that's what's boosted Comair's demands so high.
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Guvnor your a tw*t ,yes I am a MENSA member , no I can,t spell, I am sick to death of spelling police! Your comments re pilots suck since you will always be a loser in the airline stakes thank god no one pilot will EVER have to work for you.
On another note I AM SICK TO DEATH OF BALPA REPS TALKING LIKE BA MANAGERS! give it another 6 months and they can forget my subs if they don't pitch for something half decent in terms of a pay rise.
Note the finance director incumbent of BA was payed £260, 000 last year, think of the sad Air France Concorde tragedy in terms of cost(a sad way to look at it) and in total its judged at over £1 billion that for 117 people, I carry that day in day out now tell me I am not worth a deserving pay rise!
On another note I AM SICK TO DEATH OF BALPA REPS TALKING LIKE BA MANAGERS! give it another 6 months and they can forget my subs if they don't pitch for something half decent in terms of a pay rise.
Note the finance director incumbent of BA was payed £260, 000 last year, think of the sad Air France Concorde tragedy in terms of cost(a sad way to look at it) and in total its judged at over £1 billion that for 117 people, I carry that day in day out now tell me I am not worth a deserving pay rise!
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A few of the comments here have related to the demise of airlines being managements fault. Would it be fair to say that a successful airline must therefore be managements fault also. ie, the management have to control costs and expenditure. Fuel and staff make up the largest %age of an established airlines costs.
i work in GA and there is no doubt that my company could afford to put a zero on the end of my salary, (I WISH), but they won't because there is a level at which my demand for a pay rise will be met with someonelses CV.
Personally i am happy with the conditions of my job. the salary is not the be all and end all of the job. I would not degrade my profession and work for free or for less unless market forces acted against me.
I actually pay the British Airways Line Pilot Association, BALPA, a sub on the basis that i may need to be legally represented one day. If there was a European pilots Council that pilots joined and adhered to and therefore airline managers would as well, it might be worth joining. the problem with going on strike is that it ultimately hurts the strikers as well.
Pilots have a value but that value should not be tied to how sucessful an airline is. We do the job regardless of whether management has sold 70 tickets or 470. Productivity pay is nice but lets not fool ourselves into believing that we are responsible for a fully loaded aircraft of premium fare passengers. We is not.
If the travelling public wish to travel on your airline and not the competitions, it is very rarely because of the pilots. it is because of the "face of the airline" the people who have direct contact with the passenger. Perhaps the cabin crew are the undersung heroes of a successful airline. passengers will remember a smiling face, good service and a happy person more than a smooth landing or a slick PA.
We are professionals and we are highly skilled and that has to be worth an above average salary. But to the bean counters we are just another expense. Just like the racing horse JAFEICA, (Just Another F*****g Expense I Can't Afford)
Unions shouldn't represent pilots. Pilots should represent Pilots. Until there are enough Pilots representing the Pilot community we is just another chess peice in a larger game that we have no control over.
Better working conditions are just as important as a better slary but we tend to lose sight of this.
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Big Johnson Casinos "Liquor up front Poker in the rear"
i work in GA and there is no doubt that my company could afford to put a zero on the end of my salary, (I WISH), but they won't because there is a level at which my demand for a pay rise will be met with someonelses CV.
Personally i am happy with the conditions of my job. the salary is not the be all and end all of the job. I would not degrade my profession and work for free or for less unless market forces acted against me.
I actually pay the British Airways Line Pilot Association, BALPA, a sub on the basis that i may need to be legally represented one day. If there was a European pilots Council that pilots joined and adhered to and therefore airline managers would as well, it might be worth joining. the problem with going on strike is that it ultimately hurts the strikers as well.
Pilots have a value but that value should not be tied to how sucessful an airline is. We do the job regardless of whether management has sold 70 tickets or 470. Productivity pay is nice but lets not fool ourselves into believing that we are responsible for a fully loaded aircraft of premium fare passengers. We is not.
If the travelling public wish to travel on your airline and not the competitions, it is very rarely because of the pilots. it is because of the "face of the airline" the people who have direct contact with the passenger. Perhaps the cabin crew are the undersung heroes of a successful airline. passengers will remember a smiling face, good service and a happy person more than a smooth landing or a slick PA.
We are professionals and we are highly skilled and that has to be worth an above average salary. But to the bean counters we are just another expense. Just like the racing horse JAFEICA, (Just Another F*****g Expense I Can't Afford)
Unions shouldn't represent pilots. Pilots should represent Pilots. Until there are enough Pilots representing the Pilot community we is just another chess peice in a larger game that we have no control over.
Better working conditions are just as important as a better slary but we tend to lose sight of this.
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Big Johnson Casinos "Liquor up front Poker in the rear"
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Guv - I refer you to the "Near miss at Dallas" thread. Just read the company's initial bulletin on it.....funny, not ATC, management, or the ground techs could have saved those "bus drivers" ( your words, not mine, despite a bus only having 2 freedoms of motion and a train only one - forwards or backwards ). "...only ATC can stop a pile of flames..." or whatever you said.
Learnt anything yet?
How much do you think those 60 passengers think the AA crew are worth, eh?
Don't EVER try and make me justify my salary again. Period.
Learnt anything yet?
How much do you think those 60 passengers think the AA crew are worth, eh?
Don't EVER try and make me justify my salary again. Period.
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Guvnor
"Strange how many pilots think they can run airlines. Many have tried - the overwhelming majority have failed."
While I readily acknowledge that it has taken your several thousand posts to educate us all as to your infinite capacity to spout forth drivel, you are most certainly not in any position to postulate on the subject of the failure of others.
Then again, perhaps you are after all. It seems you are in fact an expert on the subject. We all know now that you are a FAILED pilot as well as a FAILED airline manager. When will you bog off and start your own website for LOSERS?
"Strange how many pilots think they can run airlines. Many have tried - the overwhelming majority have failed."
While I readily acknowledge that it has taken your several thousand posts to educate us all as to your infinite capacity to spout forth drivel, you are most certainly not in any position to postulate on the subject of the failure of others.
Then again, perhaps you are after all. It seems you are in fact an expert on the subject. We all know now that you are a FAILED pilot as well as a FAILED airline manager. When will you bog off and start your own website for LOSERS?
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Guv : So I made a spelling mistake. My degree wasn't in spelling it was an honours degree in Systems Engineering and Management.
Yes, I am a member of MENSA. IQ : 174. It isn't that hard to get in (top 2%) of the UK population - Unlike being a Pilot which is far more elite !!!!! - FACT.
Your maths leaves a lot to be desired :
1) 7 times £40,000 = £1,000,000 !!!
2) Thousands of simulator hours invested in me...what 4hrs x 2 per year ???
£40,000 pa (times two - two years). That was my salary when I quit my job to train to be a pilot. That is what I personally lost.
Under the European Employment Directive all employers are responsible for the training costs it's employees require to perform their jobs.
Hmmmmm.... Perhaps my company should be paying for my AB-INITIO ATPL then....
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Invalid Delete Say "Late Pax : Off with their Heads !!!"
"....OK, well start with their bags then..."
Yes, I am a member of MENSA. IQ : 174. It isn't that hard to get in (top 2%) of the UK population - Unlike being a Pilot which is far more elite !!!!! - FACT.
Your maths leaves a lot to be desired :
1) 7 times £40,000 = £1,000,000 !!!
2) Thousands of simulator hours invested in me...what 4hrs x 2 per year ???
£40,000 pa (times two - two years). That was my salary when I quit my job to train to be a pilot. That is what I personally lost.
Under the European Employment Directive all employers are responsible for the training costs it's employees require to perform their jobs.
Hmmmmm.... Perhaps my company should be paying for my AB-INITIO ATPL then....
------------------
Invalid Delete Say "Late Pax : Off with their Heads !!!"
"....OK, well start with their bags then..."
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Seems to me that when there is a shortage of IT skills the pot runneth over. All sorts of incentives are offered to keep these guys from walking and attract others. Trouble is that pilots, being locked into a seniority system , will not walk unless the field they are walking to is much greener.
The only tool the pilot has to ensure that pay and conditions are kept on par with other professions is industrial action.
This is a fact of life and should be recognised as such by both pilots and management.
The only tool the pilot has to ensure that pay and conditions are kept on par with other professions is industrial action.
This is a fact of life and should be recognised as such by both pilots and management.
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Guvnor, it takes an afternoon to make a flight attendant, ten years min. to make a captain...
And all you supply-side economists might like to reflect on the eighties. Traumas, remember? Eastern, Pan Am, Continental, BCal, the Australians - thousands and thousands of pilots on the market. Paradise for the operators. Well, it is a long lane that has no turning...
And all you supply-side economists might like to reflect on the eighties. Traumas, remember? Eastern, Pan Am, Continental, BCal, the Australians - thousands and thousands of pilots on the market. Paradise for the operators. Well, it is a long lane that has no turning...
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CRP5 - are you Invalid Delete? If not, why are you respondiong to a comment I clearly made to him? Time to lighten up on those meds, methinks! Oh, and no, the chances are you don't deserve a pay rise.
604Driver another good, well reasoned post. I've always found it rather interesting that for white collar alleged professionals (and at the upper end of the white collar rankings as well), pilots have a very blue collar reliance on and attitude to unions (though strangely also generally a contempt of other people's unions) - in fact one that would give the likes of Arthur Scargill wet dreams!
Unfortunately, there are all to few genuine professionals (in the true sense of the term) in this business. Most come in expecting huge salaries; and appear to rapidly develop a huge chip on their shoulder when they realise that they actually have to work for a living.
RRAAMJET - and that's why you get paid more than a truck or train driver already. However, it's no justification for grossly inflated pay claims.
Overstress - I have the IATA breakdown of average airline expenses in front of me. Fuel is the largest expense; closely followed by salaries and wages (both around 1/3 each); then aircraft leases, maintenance, etc etc.
Invalid Delete - what I actually said was: "But what about the thousands - and believe me,they are thousands - of man hours that will be invested in you to get you to the point where you are, in their view, up to an acceptable enough standard where they can trust you with the aircraft?" Sorry, but I can't see any reference to 'thousands of simulator hours' in there - perhaps having MENSA membership does something negative for word recognition, perchance?
As for the pay rates for doctors, that was somewhat tongue in cheek but based on your pay claim of GBP51k for two years study, then logically they should be getting - at least according to your maths - 3.5 times that or some GBP175k as a starter. Are they? I think not!!
Oh, and no, the chances are you don't deserve a pay rise. 604Driver another good, well reasoned post. I've always found it rather interesting that for white collar alleged professionals (and at the upper end of the white collar rankings as well), pilots have a very blue collar reliance on and attitude to unions (though strangely also generally a contempt of other people's unions) - in fact one that would give the likes of Arthur Scargill wet dreams!
Unfortunately, there are all to few genuine professionals (in the true sense of the term) in this business. Most come in expecting huge salaries; and appear to rapidly develop a huge chip on their shoulder when they realise that they actually have to work for a living.
RRAAMJET - and that's why you get paid more than a truck or train driver already. However, it's no justification for grossly inflated pay claims.
Overstress - I have the IATA breakdown of average airline expenses in front of me. Fuel is the largest expense; closely followed by salaries and wages (both around 1/3 each); then aircraft leases, maintenance, etc etc.
Invalid Delete - what I actually said was: "But what about the thousands - and believe me,they are thousands - of man hours that will be invested in you to get you to the point where you are, in their view, up to an acceptable enough standard where they can trust you with the aircraft?" Sorry, but I can't see any reference to 'thousands of simulator hours' in there - perhaps having MENSA membership does something negative for word recognition, perchance?
As for the pay rates for doctors, that was somewhat tongue in cheek but based on your pay claim of GBP51k for two years study, then logically they should be getting - at least according to your maths - 3.5 times that or some GBP175k as a starter. Are they? I think not!!