Pilots protest over 'noxious' air
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Croqueteer,
The fact is that you have simply been extremely lucky. You will almost certainly have had a very significant exposure to contaminated air in that time. Your history of no problems probably means you are simply one of the lucky individuals with a tolerance of the particular cocktail of toxins which comprise contaiminated air on the 146. MANY others with a slightly different body chemistry (or whatever it is that determines tolerance) have not been so lucky - I personally know of more than a dozen people with messed up health as a result of contaimated air on a variety of types. Please check out the Aerotoxic Association to inform youself of the extent of this problem and the issues surrounding it. (www.aerotoxic.org)
The APU is deeply implicated in the 146s contaminated air problem. Maybe, like many captains in my experience you usually got the FO to fire up the APU while you did the walk round outside? If so, then you saved yourself from a nasty dose of contaminants each morning while your FO and FAs breathed in lungfuls.
It is a total scandal that pilots new to the 146 are not told 'there is a long history of pilots and FAs developing serious medical problems on this type. Now you know this do you still want to risk it?'
Personally, I advise my family and friends to steer well clear of this and other high risk of contaminated air types such as the 757
PP
The fact is that you have simply been extremely lucky. You will almost certainly have had a very significant exposure to contaminated air in that time. Your history of no problems probably means you are simply one of the lucky individuals with a tolerance of the particular cocktail of toxins which comprise contaiminated air on the 146. MANY others with a slightly different body chemistry (or whatever it is that determines tolerance) have not been so lucky - I personally know of more than a dozen people with messed up health as a result of contaimated air on a variety of types. Please check out the Aerotoxic Association to inform youself of the extent of this problem and the issues surrounding it. (www.aerotoxic.org)
The APU is deeply implicated in the 146s contaminated air problem. Maybe, like many captains in my experience you usually got the FO to fire up the APU while you did the walk round outside? If so, then you saved yourself from a nasty dose of contaminants each morning while your FO and FAs breathed in lungfuls.
It is a total scandal that pilots new to the 146 are not told 'there is a long history of pilots and FAs developing serious medical problems on this type. Now you know this do you still want to risk it?'
Personally, I advise my family and friends to steer well clear of this and other high risk of contaminated air types such as the 757
PP
Last edited by pilotpantsdown; 22nd Oct 2007 at 10:10.
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Daily Mail takes up the story
Check out this link to the Daily Mail's website:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770
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Sydney Morning Herald story
The Sydney Morning Herald has a piece on this issue as well.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/...301122191.html
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/...301122191.html
Croqueteer:
I can beat your record; I flew the 146 for 19 years and never ever had a problem. Not only that, I am still in the rudest of health.
I do, however, know a few pilots who have had problems but it has to be said that I know hundreds of others who have never had a problem and many of them are still flying around in the aircraft quite happily.
I can beat your record; I flew the 146 for 19 years and never ever had a problem. Not only that, I am still in the rudest of health.
I do, however, know a few pilots who have had problems but it has to be said that I know hundreds of others who have never had a problem and many of them are still flying around in the aircraft quite happily.
Last edited by JW411; 22nd Oct 2007 at 19:16.
I can beat your record; I flew the 146 for 19 years and never ever had a problem. Not only that, I am still in the rudest of health
That cause-effect is always available as a reason now that it has reached this stage of association via the internet.
I too was quite worried about my own health when I recently was strangely ill, what with many hours of breathing in engine oil fumes, burning Titanium dust transite dust, and last but not least vaporized lead fumes.
I was pleasently surprised when a whole series of tests showed all internal organs were unremarkable and no significant accumulation of lead But should I ever die, my wife will always have something to blame it on.
lomapaseo:
Why in God's name would I ever consider blaming some future malady on polluted cockpits? It is you folks living out there in the old colony who have perfected blaming every little thing on someone else and screaming for a lawyer every time you trip on a blade of grass.
When I was a kid, I used to clean the stains off engine cowlings with toluene. I spent 18 years in the RAF cleaning chinagraph boards with CTC. Nobody ever told me that these chemicals were lethal but I seem to have survived the experience quite happily just as I seem to have survived frequent visits to a coal-fired boiler house dripping with asbestos, getting covered in Jet A1, AVGAS and even cow sh*t.
I have already made the point on a previous discussion on this subject that it would be much more interesting to find out why it is that a very few people DO GENUINELY react badly to fumes. If we knew that, then they could be tested medically before taking up a career in aviation and perhaps directed towards organic farming instead.
If, and when, something goes seriously wrong with my health then I am more likely to put it down to:
1. Old age.
2. My undying support for my local brewery.
3. Smoking, in years gone by.
4. Indiscriminate wick-dipping on a global basis as a younger man.
5. General wear and tear brought about by 50 years of flying.
Why in God's name would I ever consider blaming some future malady on polluted cockpits? It is you folks living out there in the old colony who have perfected blaming every little thing on someone else and screaming for a lawyer every time you trip on a blade of grass.
When I was a kid, I used to clean the stains off engine cowlings with toluene. I spent 18 years in the RAF cleaning chinagraph boards with CTC. Nobody ever told me that these chemicals were lethal but I seem to have survived the experience quite happily just as I seem to have survived frequent visits to a coal-fired boiler house dripping with asbestos, getting covered in Jet A1, AVGAS and even cow sh*t.
I have already made the point on a previous discussion on this subject that it would be much more interesting to find out why it is that a very few people DO GENUINELY react badly to fumes. If we knew that, then they could be tested medically before taking up a career in aviation and perhaps directed towards organic farming instead.
If, and when, something goes seriously wrong with my health then I am more likely to put it down to:
1. Old age.
2. My undying support for my local brewery.
3. Smoking, in years gone by.
4. Indiscriminate wick-dipping on a global basis as a younger man.
5. General wear and tear brought about by 50 years of flying.
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This problem has gone on for decades because the Civil Aviation
Authority and Department of Transport are putting airline interests
ahead of us the passengers.
A certain UK airline, and others know they will get away with this, profit
over health and safety......
Authority and Department of Transport are putting airline interests
ahead of us the passengers.
A certain UK airline, and others know they will get away with this, profit
over health and safety......
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JW411
There is no suitable test at the moment. In any case, why should propsective pilots and other crew members get tested before starting a flying career?
Everyone has the right to expect that they will not be exposed to highly poisonous neurotoxins while at work. The airline industry needs to clean up its act. It should not not up to crews to see how sensitive they might be to fumes.
There is no suitable test at the moment. In any case, why should propsective pilots and other crew members get tested before starting a flying career?
Everyone has the right to expect that they will not be exposed to highly poisonous neurotoxins while at work. The airline industry needs to clean up its act. It should not not up to crews to see how sensitive they might be to fumes.
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JW411, I must say, I'm enjoying being retired. Just before I left, I offered the F/O a visual (nice day) and he/she said, " No, I might get disoriented!" I think that says it all.
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Its all a load of tosh in my opinion - I mean how come none of the BE passengers have been affected only some nameless crew members who by the way do not appear to have told BE Management about it (Well not to the extent they have told the media)
JW411
A man (or woman) who actually talks sense
JW411
A man (or woman) who actually talks sense
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Lawmaker Says BAE Tried To Mask Stinky RJ Cabins
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?C...-d617274dd0b0&
Mon, 22 Oct '07
Something Smells Here...
BAE 146 regional jets are back in the news, after a member of the British parliament suggested the defense company had a secret deal between British Aerospace Regional Aircraft, East West Airlines, and Ansett Transport Industries, according to the London Daily Mail.
Lord Tyler claimed a document leaked to him, signed in 1993, shows BAE paid the airlines $674,000 to not reveal the aircraft leaked toxic fumes into the passenger cabin.
Claims the carriers were paid to be quiet over alleged design flaws that led to cabin contamination in the BAE 146 jets, also used on flights by the Queen of England, are being debated in the British House of Lords.
A British government spokesman says that there was no evidence to suggest that there was a major problem, but the Mail says, the allegations are an embarrassment to BAE.
One BAE official said, "We are not prepared to comment on any document that has been obtained illegally, and/or in breach of confidentiality agreements."
FMI: http://www.baesystems.com/Businesses...raft/index.htm
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?C...-d617274dd0b0&
Mon, 22 Oct '07
Something Smells Here...
BAE 146 regional jets are back in the news, after a member of the British parliament suggested the defense company had a secret deal between British Aerospace Regional Aircraft, East West Airlines, and Ansett Transport Industries, according to the London Daily Mail.
Lord Tyler claimed a document leaked to him, signed in 1993, shows BAE paid the airlines $674,000 to not reveal the aircraft leaked toxic fumes into the passenger cabin.
Claims the carriers were paid to be quiet over alleged design flaws that led to cabin contamination in the BAE 146 jets, also used on flights by the Queen of England, are being debated in the British House of Lords.
A British government spokesman says that there was no evidence to suggest that there was a major problem, but the Mail says, the allegations are an embarrassment to BAE.
One BAE official said, "We are not prepared to comment on any document that has been obtained illegally, and/or in breach of confidentiality agreements."
FMI: http://www.baesystems.com/Businesses...raft/index.htm
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I mean how come none of the BE passengers have been affected only some nameless crew members who by the way do not appear to have told BE Management about it
60% of the passengers were asleep.(Unconscious?)
This was a midday flight from LGW to BHD.
This is not the only flight where passengers were unconscious either.
G-JEAM is one of the worst offenders, G-JEBG is just as bad and is the aircraft involved in the event reported in the press and by the BBC.
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I was pleasently surprised when a whole series of tests showed all internal organs were unremarkable and no significant accumulation of lead
Did you have any Neuropsychological or Neurophysiological testing carried out?
What particular Blood tests did you have?
Did you have a Fat Biopsy?
It is all very well saying that you had tests carried out but if they were not the correct ones then the results are meaningless.
It is a bit like having a Blood test for Alcohol.
Sure, they will not find any traces of lead or other chemicals as they are not looking for them in those tests, they have to be specifically for the Hydrocarbons, CO, TCP, other SVOC's & VOC's.
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The Australian report on the 146 back in 1999 makes interesting reading...
http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committ...ort/report.pdf
It says that Australian 146 were modified to rectify the problem. Were those mods also done to other 146?
http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committ...ort/report.pdf
It says that Australian 146 were modified to rectify the problem. Were those mods also done to other 146?
PersonalTitle to help support PPRuNe against legal bullying.
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Could those who just want to say the cabin-air equivalent of "I smoked 20 a day and am now 95 and it never did me any harm" please just shut up.
Your pin-brained comments about how you did not suffer any effects so there can't be a problem are of no value to anyone. It is those who have a problem and have no redress who are important, no one cares that Mr Selfish did not suffer.
I suppose you'll be saying that Polio does not exist as you didn't get it when you were a child?
Statistically, you could have flown the 146 for your entire working life and not suffered a problem, such a fact is utterly irrelevant and useless to the debate as it is worthless data.
It is sad that sometimes it is the pilots themselves who post the most rubbish on these threads.
Good luck to all those who are pushing this issue forward.
Your pin-brained comments about how you did not suffer any effects so there can't be a problem are of no value to anyone. It is those who have a problem and have no redress who are important, no one cares that Mr Selfish did not suffer.
I suppose you'll be saying that Polio does not exist as you didn't get it when you were a child?
Statistically, you could have flown the 146 for your entire working life and not suffered a problem, such a fact is utterly irrelevant and useless to the debate as it is worthless data.
It is sad that sometimes it is the pilots themselves who post the most rubbish on these threads.
Good luck to all those who are pushing this issue forward.
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Human medical variation
Tallsandwich
Well said, absolutely spot on!
The oil fumes from the BAe 146 cooked my brains over 16 years - no question; now i've stopped flying i've at last got 95% of my health back. Fantastic feeling; highly recommended if you can do it.
However for the past 10 years I haven't had a common cold. Not once.
How strange is that?
DB
Well said, absolutely spot on!
The oil fumes from the BAe 146 cooked my brains over 16 years - no question; now i've stopped flying i've at last got 95% of my health back. Fantastic feeling; highly recommended if you can do it.
However for the past 10 years I haven't had a common cold. Not once.
How strange is that?
DB
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Croqueteer
This response is made with the greatest of respect to you. No one is immune to the effects of exposure to the OPs in contaminated air, its just a question of individual exposure thresholds. Everyone, including you, has an exposure limit beyond which they will become symptomatic. Symptoms may well start insidiously if caused by frequent low-dose exposures, so they are invariably not initially identified as such even if the victim is aware of exposure issues.
After so long on the aircraft, I most highly doubt that you have zero symptoms, even if you think that is the case. Let me repeat that individuals typically do not recognise that they are suffering from symptoms to start with.
One of the many possible symptoms is to become more emotional, for example being easily irritated/angered and flying off the handle much more easily that would otherwise be the case. Those of us with experience of this dreadful scandal will back me on this.
That you have expressed youself in the way you have, and that you came back with the comment you did makes me wonder if you are in fact yourself suffering from the effects of exposure to cabin air.
I doubt you will agree with me on this, but please at least try to think this over and perhaps offer us a considered response, as distinct from an emotional reaction. I repeat - this response is made with the greatest of respect to you. Please show the same respect to others here who may not be so lucky as you.
PP
This response is made with the greatest of respect to you. No one is immune to the effects of exposure to the OPs in contaminated air, its just a question of individual exposure thresholds. Everyone, including you, has an exposure limit beyond which they will become symptomatic. Symptoms may well start insidiously if caused by frequent low-dose exposures, so they are invariably not initially identified as such even if the victim is aware of exposure issues.
After so long on the aircraft, I most highly doubt that you have zero symptoms, even if you think that is the case. Let me repeat that individuals typically do not recognise that they are suffering from symptoms to start with.
One of the many possible symptoms is to become more emotional, for example being easily irritated/angered and flying off the handle much more easily that would otherwise be the case. Those of us with experience of this dreadful scandal will back me on this.
That you have expressed youself in the way you have, and that you came back with the comment you did makes me wonder if you are in fact yourself suffering from the effects of exposure to cabin air.
I doubt you will agree with me on this, but please at least try to think this over and perhaps offer us a considered response, as distinct from an emotional reaction. I repeat - this response is made with the greatest of respect to you. Please show the same respect to others here who may not be so lucky as you.
PP