One rule for US another for the rest
As part of the MoD Commercial organisation I can state that the MoD do NOT always go for the cheapest tender bid - but do try to evaluate on a pure Value for Money basis. This evaluation process is normally considered well advance, has much criteria for marking matrix and is on many occasions subject to clarification and revise and confirm procedures. the facts will be that any UK company who prepared and submitted a propsal were just not acceptable on all critera.
The Mod budget is however very much stetched and all involved are feeling the pinch.
On another note, Omni have bee operating out of Brize for a number of months now on contracted work.
The Mod budget is however very much stetched and all involved are feeling the pinch.
On another note, Omni have bee operating out of Brize for a number of months now on contracted work.
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I for one shall be keeping a close eye on this new contract.
XL operating the route with the B747 offered a greater payload and cargo carrying capability. It made the ease of getting freight down to MPA a lot easier.
A lot of people are concerned that Omni with there equipment will not be able to carry on the same level of service that has become the norm for everyone concerned.
G man
XL operating the route with the B747 offered a greater payload and cargo carrying capability. It made the ease of getting freight down to MPA a lot easier.
A lot of people are concerned that Omni with there equipment will not be able to carry on the same level of service that has become the norm for everyone concerned.
G man
Shock, horror - there has been a similar furore recently in NZ after AirNZ carried out a charter of Aussie troops to Kuwait (bound eventually for Iraq). Ironically, it was the NZ govt that got its knickers in a twist - seen to be tacitly supporting the invasion of Iraq - doh.....get over it...
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I am an Omni Air pilot, and I'd just like to throw in a bit of information.
First, it is true that the US DOD contracts with Russian companies to fly equipment into Iraq in Antonov cargo airplanes. I see this happen frequently, and I talk with those Russian crew members in our hotel in the Middle East.
To say that the US DOD would not hire a carrier from another country is false.
Also, I can confirm that Omni Air was NOT the lowest bidder on the Brize Norton - Falklands flying. Omni was selected because of the reliable service record we have provided the British MOD during numerous other flights we've operated for them during the past year or two. They were happy with our performance, and selected us over competitors because they felt we could get the job done best.
There is no cabotage in this case, as alluded to previously, because this is a charter flight. All seats on the airplane are purchased as a group by the MOD, and as a result it becomes an British MOD flight, not a US airline flight. The MOD can then carry whoever or whatever they want, as it is their flight.
Omni would be prohibited from selling tickets on airline flights within the UK, and we are not doing that, nor have we ever done that.
I can also tell you that our maintenance is excellent -- Any time I've written up a problem with an airplane it has always been fixed and fixed correctly. We do not operate airplanes with shoddy maintenance.
Also, our small airline has been more profitable than almost every other airline I can think of in the USA for the last couple years. It is not a little company on a shoestring budget.
BALPA can feel free to protest our winnning of this contract if they like. But, I must say, had the British MOD been happier with the performance of another carrier, they would have chosen another carrier. If a British carrier would like to pick up this contract next time around, perhaps those interested British carriers should improve their own performance enough to make the MOD happy. Omni has lost out on contracts in the past. It happened to win this one. Thats the sort of thing every charter airline goes through.
No airline should ever win a contract because of the Flag it flies. A contract should be won based on good, solid performance, reputation, and of course price will be a factor too. All airlines are free to compete for such contracts. It would be unfortunate if an airline is chosen to do anything just because of it's Flag. Service would definitely suffer if that is the most important criteria.
First, it is true that the US DOD contracts with Russian companies to fly equipment into Iraq in Antonov cargo airplanes. I see this happen frequently, and I talk with those Russian crew members in our hotel in the Middle East.
To say that the US DOD would not hire a carrier from another country is false.
Also, I can confirm that Omni Air was NOT the lowest bidder on the Brize Norton - Falklands flying. Omni was selected because of the reliable service record we have provided the British MOD during numerous other flights we've operated for them during the past year or two. They were happy with our performance, and selected us over competitors because they felt we could get the job done best.
There is no cabotage in this case, as alluded to previously, because this is a charter flight. All seats on the airplane are purchased as a group by the MOD, and as a result it becomes an British MOD flight, not a US airline flight. The MOD can then carry whoever or whatever they want, as it is their flight.
Omni would be prohibited from selling tickets on airline flights within the UK, and we are not doing that, nor have we ever done that.
I can also tell you that our maintenance is excellent -- Any time I've written up a problem with an airplane it has always been fixed and fixed correctly. We do not operate airplanes with shoddy maintenance.
Also, our small airline has been more profitable than almost every other airline I can think of in the USA for the last couple years. It is not a little company on a shoestring budget.
BALPA can feel free to protest our winnning of this contract if they like. But, I must say, had the British MOD been happier with the performance of another carrier, they would have chosen another carrier. If a British carrier would like to pick up this contract next time around, perhaps those interested British carriers should improve their own performance enough to make the MOD happy. Omni has lost out on contracts in the past. It happened to win this one. Thats the sort of thing every charter airline goes through.
No airline should ever win a contract because of the Flag it flies. A contract should be won based on good, solid performance, reputation, and of course price will be a factor too. All airlines are free to compete for such contracts. It would be unfortunate if an airline is chosen to do anything just because of it's Flag. Service would definitely suffer if that is the most important criteria.
Last edited by TWApilot; 20th Oct 2007 at 02:34.
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No airline should ever win a contract because of the Flag it flies. A contract should be won based on good, solid performance, reputation, and of course price will be a factor too. All airlines are free to compete for such contracts
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Fly America policy????? Please enlighten me. I have no idea what that is, and I've been flying for US airlines for 12 years.
If you are referring to Cabotage, that is banned worldwide. No airline is permitted to sell tickets on flights enplaning and deplaning passengers solely within a country other than their own. It cannot, and does not, happen anywhere on earth.
Omni is a Charter carrier. We NEVER sell tickets on any route. We only charter our airplanes to other companies or governments, and those other organizations choose who and what to put on our airplanes. We do not hold out ourselves as an airline operating from point A to point B. We simply charter our jets to whoever wants to purchase them. In this case, it is the MOD.
Therefore, we are NOT engaging in Cabotage. If we were selling tickets to the general public on flights within the UK, taking passengers from London to Glasgow and so forth, yes that would be Cabotage and it would be illegal. We do not do that.
To say that the USA is alone in prohibiting Cabotage is foolish.... It was not the USA which set up the ban on Cabotage in the first place. Cabotage was prohibited when the "Freedoms of the Air" were listed at the time of ICAO's formation in 1944.
Every country affiliated with ICAO has a responsibility to uphold the ban on Cabotage.
What you describe as a Fly America policy is probably nothing more than the USA adhearing to ICAO's prohibition against Cabotage.
Every other country should do the same.
But again, Omni is a Charter Airline. We do not sell tickets on our flights. We have never sold tickets. We simply offer a whole airplane, to be chartered by whoever wants to purchase it, and we then fly from wherever that company wants us to fly to wherever they want to go. That is NOT cabotage.
Also, I already mentioned that the US government charters airplanes from other countries routinely, such as the Russian Antonovs. This "Fly America" idea you put forth doesn't make sense.
If you are referring to Cabotage, that is banned worldwide. No airline is permitted to sell tickets on flights enplaning and deplaning passengers solely within a country other than their own. It cannot, and does not, happen anywhere on earth.
Omni is a Charter carrier. We NEVER sell tickets on any route. We only charter our airplanes to other companies or governments, and those other organizations choose who and what to put on our airplanes. We do not hold out ourselves as an airline operating from point A to point B. We simply charter our jets to whoever wants to purchase them. In this case, it is the MOD.
Therefore, we are NOT engaging in Cabotage. If we were selling tickets to the general public on flights within the UK, taking passengers from London to Glasgow and so forth, yes that would be Cabotage and it would be illegal. We do not do that.
To say that the USA is alone in prohibiting Cabotage is foolish.... It was not the USA which set up the ban on Cabotage in the first place. Cabotage was prohibited when the "Freedoms of the Air" were listed at the time of ICAO's formation in 1944.
Every country affiliated with ICAO has a responsibility to uphold the ban on Cabotage.
What you describe as a Fly America policy is probably nothing more than the USA adhearing to ICAO's prohibition against Cabotage.
Every other country should do the same.
But again, Omni is a Charter Airline. We do not sell tickets on our flights. We have never sold tickets. We simply offer a whole airplane, to be chartered by whoever wants to purchase it, and we then fly from wherever that company wants us to fly to wherever they want to go. That is NOT cabotage.
Also, I already mentioned that the US government charters airplanes from other countries routinely, such as the Russian Antonovs. This "Fly America" idea you put forth doesn't make sense.
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Have to agree with TWA pilot it does not make sense, this is a very competitive world and industry.
Come on Guys!
Omni is a very good charter airline, they under bid you, give it a rest.
BALPA is the same as ALPA here in the USA, just talk and collect the union dues from its members.
Quote Gman 911
I for one shall be keeping a close eye on this new contract.
XL operating the route with the B747 offered a greater payload and cargo carrying capability. It made the ease of getting freight down to MPA a lot easier.
A lot of people are concerned that Omni with there equipment will not be able to carry on the same level of service that has become the norm for everyone concerned.
G man
Earl:
When did XL get G registered 747"s
Is this not Air Atlanta Icelandic?
Last I heard Iceland was not even in the EU, has something changed here.
Yet they operate full pax out of the UK with Travel city to Orlando with TF registered aircraft and some non British crews.
Get your facts straight.
Dont see Balpa doing anything here, been going on for years with Travel city and many other contracts.
Perhaps Iceland just knows where to throw the money.
It would seem that Balpa would have bigger Fish to fry here!
Come on Guys!
Omni is a very good charter airline, they under bid you, give it a rest.
BALPA is the same as ALPA here in the USA, just talk and collect the union dues from its members.
Quote Gman 911
I for one shall be keeping a close eye on this new contract.
XL operating the route with the B747 offered a greater payload and cargo carrying capability. It made the ease of getting freight down to MPA a lot easier.
A lot of people are concerned that Omni with there equipment will not be able to carry on the same level of service that has become the norm for everyone concerned.
G man
Earl:
When did XL get G registered 747"s
Is this not Air Atlanta Icelandic?
Last I heard Iceland was not even in the EU, has something changed here.
Yet they operate full pax out of the UK with Travel city to Orlando with TF registered aircraft and some non British crews.
Get your facts straight.
Dont see Balpa doing anything here, been going on for years with Travel city and many other contracts.
Perhaps Iceland just knows where to throw the money.
It would seem that Balpa would have bigger Fish to fry here!
Last edited by Earl; 20th Oct 2007 at 05:37.
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No airline is permitted to sell tickets on flights enplaning and deplaning passengers solely within a country other than their own. It cannot, and does not, happen anywhere on earth.
Mutt
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Last time I checked, Rome and Paris are in two different countries. Of course any airline has the right to sell tickets and fly between Rome and Paris. You just are not permitted to fly within the same country if it isn't your own.
Europe is not a country.
Your airline would not be allowed to fly between Rome and Naples, however. That would be prohibited. Every country prohibits that sort of thing. And that is fine.
Europe is not a country.
Your airline would not be allowed to fly between Rome and Naples, however. That would be prohibited. Every country prohibits that sort of thing. And that is fine.
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No airline should ever win a contract because of the Flag it flies. A contract should be won based on good, solid performance, reputation, and of course price will be a factor too. All airlines are free to compete for such contracts
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As i understand it the MOD will have put out bids to all UK Airlines (not sure about EU). If the airlines don't bid they can go outside. Maybe XL declined the contract because they are getting rid of their 747 and 767's?
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Just to clarify this point...... you are wrong, as a Middle Eastern airline we sell tickets on some of our internal European sectors, ie, Rome to Paris. So you cannot say that it doesnt happen anywhere on earth...
Mutt
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Instead of bi**hing about who should be flying who based on patriotism, maybe we should be looking closer at why it has been decided that a US company can provide our troops and our MOD with a better service than any of our own UK bred companies.
Our forces are working their backsides off - far harder and enduring far more hardship than the majority of posters on the civil forums will ever experience.
I for one do not begrudge the troops the best service (both in terms of service provision to them and service provision to the MOD), whether that comes from a Yank a Brit or any other nationality.
If businesses in our country cannot provide the service required, then it should go to someone who can instead of allocating it to some less than ideal company for the sake of patriotism.
Maybe if some of the Brit posters who are whingeing about this actually stopped to think why the above may be happening, they will zip their lips and begin to realise that the problem is not with the MOD contract, but with the service that our once proud nation can provide.
Aplevid wrote
100% correct, but not for the reason you state... it's sad that UK companies cannot see beyond profits and take a bit of a hit in profits on one contract to provide our forces with the support they deserve.
Our forces are working their backsides off - far harder and enduring far more hardship than the majority of posters on the civil forums will ever experience.
I for one do not begrudge the troops the best service (both in terms of service provision to them and service provision to the MOD), whether that comes from a Yank a Brit or any other nationality.
If businesses in our country cannot provide the service required, then it should go to someone who can instead of allocating it to some less than ideal company for the sake of patriotism.
Maybe if some of the Brit posters who are whingeing about this actually stopped to think why the above may be happening, they will zip their lips and begin to realise that the problem is not with the MOD contract, but with the service that our once proud nation can provide.
Aplevid wrote
.....sad isn't it? its money and not the Flag anymore.
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I don't mean to sound as if UK carriers are not capable of providing good reliable service.
In this particular case, Omni happened to win out.
You must consider that perhaps one of the reasons the contract went outside of the UK is simply that there is a smaller number of carriers and available airplanes in the UK. Those UK carriers quite possibly had their hands full with other contracts. Nothing wrong with that.
There are more available airplanes for use in the US, so it stands to reason that countries with less of their own airline capacity will hire planes from the States and other places.
We've been hired to fly for Japanese companies as well as companies in Kazakhstan and Iceland and many others. Not that the air carriers are substandard in those countries, they just don't have the available airplanes and the available seat capacity. So they hire outside of their country.
Not a big deal. They just want to get the airplanes in to get the job done.
In this particular case, Omni happened to win out.
You must consider that perhaps one of the reasons the contract went outside of the UK is simply that there is a smaller number of carriers and available airplanes in the UK. Those UK carriers quite possibly had their hands full with other contracts. Nothing wrong with that.
There are more available airplanes for use in the US, so it stands to reason that countries with less of their own airline capacity will hire planes from the States and other places.
We've been hired to fly for Japanese companies as well as companies in Kazakhstan and Iceland and many others. Not that the air carriers are substandard in those countries, they just don't have the available airplanes and the available seat capacity. So they hire outside of their country.
Not a big deal. They just want to get the airplanes in to get the job done.
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TWA
you keep hitting the nail firmly on the head - Just to clarify - I am merely alluding to the whingeing that goes on.... I bet the ex-service pilots who are now flying civvy would rather their successors in the armed forces got a decent service commensurate with the hard work they (the armed forces) are putting in, and that the ex mil pilots are not the ones who are whingeing about the awarding of contracts!
It's a balance that has to be achieved between service and cost - or would our 'patriotic' civilian pilots rather the MOD blew a larger than required proportion of its already meagre budget on ensuring that British companies secured the contracts, thus denying our servicemen and women the funds required to provide them with equipment needed on the frontline (basics which are still not always getting provided, such as appropriate clothing for the operating environment or body armour etc etc).
Maybe the problem is that the MOD does not have an adequate budget, but until they do, they have to juggle what they have - in the interests of the services, not some civvy company or its employees!
you keep hitting the nail firmly on the head - Just to clarify - I am merely alluding to the whingeing that goes on.... I bet the ex-service pilots who are now flying civvy would rather their successors in the armed forces got a decent service commensurate with the hard work they (the armed forces) are putting in, and that the ex mil pilots are not the ones who are whingeing about the awarding of contracts!
It's a balance that has to be achieved between service and cost - or would our 'patriotic' civilian pilots rather the MOD blew a larger than required proportion of its already meagre budget on ensuring that British companies secured the contracts, thus denying our servicemen and women the funds required to provide them with equipment needed on the frontline (basics which are still not always getting provided, such as appropriate clothing for the operating environment or body armour etc etc).
Maybe the problem is that the MOD does not have an adequate budget, but until they do, they have to juggle what they have - in the interests of the services, not some civvy company or its employees!
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Earl says it all:
The contract was awarded years ago to XL and they have been running it for years on a TF-regn AAI747 with a mixed of Icelandic non-BALPA subscribing crews, until omni was awarded it
Did XL keep it all-British? I think not...
and now BALPA wakes up to fight for it to be awarded back to XL so they can stick it back on the Icelandic operation??
I'd hate to go to war with BALPA, as they'd spend the first 3 years trying to work out whose side they were on.
Time to cancel by BALPA subs, I think
The contract was awarded years ago to XL and they have been running it for years on a TF-regn AAI747 with a mixed of Icelandic non-BALPA subscribing crews, until omni was awarded it
Did XL keep it all-British? I think not...
and now BALPA wakes up to fight for it to be awarded back to XL so they can stick it back on the Icelandic operation??
I'd hate to go to war with BALPA, as they'd spend the first 3 years trying to work out whose side they were on.
Time to cancel by BALPA subs, I think
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I've flow contracts for the US Gov' on EU reg Aircraft with international crews from US mailand to other places. So to say the US would never do it is false.
Someone said the septics didn't help during the Falklands confilct. Maybe not overtly but do a little research and you will find there was lots of covert assistance.
Having flown the route in question for about 5 years when the RAF had the resources to cover it I can only say good luck to Omni. You can keep it. Say hello to the VC club in ASI and avoid the bennies.
Someone said the septics didn't help during the Falklands confilct. Maybe not overtly but do a little research and you will find there was lots of covert assistance.
Having flown the route in question for about 5 years when the RAF had the resources to cover it I can only say good luck to Omni. You can keep it. Say hello to the VC club in ASI and avoid the bennies.
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Does this mean we'll see Omni back at Durham Tees Valley throughout this winter on the regular flights from Qatar? They did it last winter flying in every day without fail! Until later in the winter (around March) when Air Caraibes joined in the fun.
The MOD schedules are such that you have to operate three flights in each 14 day period, with the days changing slightly as the programme rolls forward. It makes it impossible to schedule any other regular activity with the aircraft alongside the Falklands operations.
You therefore end up scheduling three long-haul trips for the aircraft in 14 days, which is hardly high utilisation. As a result, to make it work, you need an aircraft which has relatively low lease/ownership costs. I can't think of one UK long-haul operator which is so equipped at present - gone are the TriStars, 747s etc and everyone now operates aircraft like A330s or 767s which are expensive to lease.
No UK operator with its current fleet could therefore make the contract work given the schedules which the UK MoD requires. The contract has therefore gone to a non-UK operator in the form of Omni, operating its DC10-30s with low capital costs.
Unless or until the MOD schedule changes to enable the aircraft to be used on other things, no operator with third-generation aircraft will be able to compete for the contract. It is therefore tied in to using older aircraft, which Omni have. That said, an old aircraft is not automatically an under-maintained one as some may argue.
You therefore end up scheduling three long-haul trips for the aircraft in 14 days, which is hardly high utilisation. As a result, to make it work, you need an aircraft which has relatively low lease/ownership costs. I can't think of one UK long-haul operator which is so equipped at present - gone are the TriStars, 747s etc and everyone now operates aircraft like A330s or 767s which are expensive to lease.
No UK operator with its current fleet could therefore make the contract work given the schedules which the UK MoD requires. The contract has therefore gone to a non-UK operator in the form of Omni, operating its DC10-30s with low capital costs.
Unless or until the MOD schedule changes to enable the aircraft to be used on other things, no operator with third-generation aircraft will be able to compete for the contract. It is therefore tied in to using older aircraft, which Omni have. That said, an old aircraft is not automatically an under-maintained one as some may argue.
Chaps, the criteria is not "The Lowest Bidder" its the "Most Economically Advantageous" - Pandora's box when politics gets drawn into it.
Omni seem to have honed their business model on this type of contract so good luck to them.
BALPA need to wake up and smell the coffee, times have moved on. Pick your fights, flapping your wings on a lost cause wins no friends.
Omni seem to have honed their business model on this type of contract so good luck to them.
BALPA need to wake up and smell the coffee, times have moved on. Pick your fights, flapping your wings on a lost cause wins no friends.