Aer Lingus Pilot suspended in hub dispute
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ASFCAP,
I'm sure if the share holders were in the pilot's shoes they would be doing the same thing.
The underlying point is no one should have to suffer when a company expands onto new ground or opens a new base. Why should the pilots accept poorer T's and C's, why should ground staff or anyone, ever Mr Mannion have to accept poorer T's and C's. To please the G*d forsaken share holders? To please the Aer Lingus board?
PILOTS FLY BECAUSE THEY ARE PASSIONATE ABOUT FLIGHT! THEY DID NOT SPEND HUGE AMOUNTS OF TIME, MONEY AND EFFORT TRAINING THEMSELVES TO PLEASE A BUNCH OF GREEDY, PROFITEERING SHARE HOLDERS OR THE BOARD. THEY TRAINED THEMSELVES TO FLY BECAUSE OF A PASSION.
Aer Lingus was doing well based in Dublin. They can do well based in Belfast or Timbucktoo or on the Moon or Mars but they can only do well if they treat the people who are passionately working for them fairly.
IT IS NOT FAIR ON THE PILOTS TO BE MADE TO ACCEPT POORER T's and C's.
Maybe not, but it would be detrimental to the shareholders to whom Mannion and the Aer Lingus Board are ultimately answerable.
The underlying point is no one should have to suffer when a company expands onto new ground or opens a new base. Why should the pilots accept poorer T's and C's, why should ground staff or anyone, ever Mr Mannion have to accept poorer T's and C's. To please the G*d forsaken share holders? To please the Aer Lingus board?
PILOTS FLY BECAUSE THEY ARE PASSIONATE ABOUT FLIGHT! THEY DID NOT SPEND HUGE AMOUNTS OF TIME, MONEY AND EFFORT TRAINING THEMSELVES TO PLEASE A BUNCH OF GREEDY, PROFITEERING SHARE HOLDERS OR THE BOARD. THEY TRAINED THEMSELVES TO FLY BECAUSE OF A PASSION.
Aer Lingus was doing well based in Dublin. They can do well based in Belfast or Timbucktoo or on the Moon or Mars but they can only do well if they treat the people who are passionately working for them fairly.
IT IS NOT FAIR ON THE PILOTS TO BE MADE TO ACCEPT POORER T's and C's.
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PILOTS FLY BECAUSE THEY ARE PASSIONATE ABOUT FLIGHT! THEY DID NOT SPEND HUGE AMOUNTS OF TIME, MONEY AND EFFORT TRAINING THEMSELVES TO PLEASE A BUNCH OF GREEDY, PROFITEERING SHARE HOLDERS OR THE BOARD. THEY TRAINED THEMSELVES TO FLY BECAUSE OF A PASSION.
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FO Jimmie,
To be honest, I doubt very much if 'passion for flight' comes into the eqation anywhere. More likely, it has more to do with the way the pilots as employees are treated, both individually and collectively, by a management team which seems to go out of its way to demoralize and denegrate.
To be honest, I doubt very much if 'passion for flight' comes into the eqation anywhere. More likely, it has more to do with the way the pilots as employees are treated, both individually and collectively, by a management team which seems to go out of its way to demoralize and denegrate.
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I think Radar is right. No doubt, as most of them are relatively long serving, the EI pilots' passion for flying has worn rather thin by now (it tends too after not long). Once the initial excitement has worn off, as it has I;m sure aeons ago for the EI pilots, it's just a job. They probably just wanted to be treated like any responsible, necessary and safety-critical professional should be treated. Take note ryanair pilots.
Micko doesn't give a toss about his investment. Aer Lingus are his only able competitor in his most profitable market and IALPA are the only union he's scared of. Therefore he's prepared to write the investment off for the twin prizes of no more Aer Lingus and IALPA broken. Unfortunately EI are run by a CEO too stupid to realise what micko is after as he (micko) pulls the strings.
On the other hand though, I can't see a certain 29.4% shareholder sitting idly by watching the value of his investment tumble if Aer Lingus were to close up shop for any period of time,
Last edited by CamelhAir; 13th Oct 2007 at 22:55.
I know a few EI drivers, all are quality of life focussed - life revolves around family issues rather than hand flying in IMC, they get their kicks elsewhere.
This is not to denigrate their skills or commitment, just the way it is. i.e. They're normal blokes like the rest of us.
EI is now a private Co. IRL Gov shareholding is irrelevant in terms of board decisions, likewise the FR 29%. DM has free reign en route to a big bonus.
Its going to be rough...
This is not to denigrate their skills or commitment, just the way it is. i.e. They're normal blokes like the rest of us.
EI is now a private Co. IRL Gov shareholding is irrelevant in terms of board decisions, likewise the FR 29%. DM has free reign en route to a big bonus.
Its going to be rough...
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Mini, yeah I know a few too. Aerosexuals they are not. Their ability to not be blinded by shiny shoulder bars gives them a distinct advantage in looking at the only show in town: pay and conditions.
Aerosexuals in the ranks are the biggest threat to T&C's, some airlines have more than others unfortunately.
Aerosexuals in the ranks are the biggest threat to T&C's, some airlines have more than others unfortunately.
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Tell me why I don't like Mondays.....
Nothing succeeds like success.
Farewell, IALPA. You've been weighed, measured and found wanting...again.
Such a shame you destroyed Aer Lingus in the process, though.
Farewell, IALPA. You've been weighed, measured and found wanting...again.
Such a shame you destroyed Aer Lingus in the process, though.
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Originally Posted by Leo Hairy-Camel
Farewell, IALPA. You've been weighed, measured and found wanting...again.
Such a shame you destroyed Aer Lingus in the process, though.
Such a shame you destroyed Aer Lingus in the process, though.
"Ryanair Chief Executive, Michael O'Leary, has said he believes that pilots at rival Aer Lingus do not have the stomach for a winter strike and that they would be back after two days if a strike occurred."
I am very confident that both of these statements will be found to be very far from the truth. It's Ryanair's grasp of reality I found to be wanting. I'd like to see how well Ryanair could deal with unions, have a large majority of happy and proud employees AND make all their profit carrying passengers, all at the same time. Nobody can say Ryanair does much, if any, of that at the moment. Aer Lingus had all that six months ago, until management (not the pilots) blatantly ignored existing industrial agreements and shat on the very people who were an important part of the survival and ultimate success of the airline post 9/11.
It's all spin and publicity for these leeches, sucking all the news space they can out of the situation. I'm quite sure that such MOL/LHC comments here are designed, in part, to provoke the EI pilots. It is after all in Ryanair's interest to see Aer Lingus grounded. Rumour always has been that they often have more aircraft on the ground than they know what to do with, particularly so right now it seems, cancelling flights rather than have them fly a losing route. If Mannion calls the Blue and Yellows in to help out, it's great news for FR, who will of course make more money doing that than some of their own routes ever would.
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One more thing.
What about the passengers in this lockout?
We usually get lots of 'outrage' from the 'what about the passengers' crowd at this stage in a dispute.
Strange, isn't it, how silent those voice are right now?
The reason of course is that this time it isn't legitimate strike action by pilots which is about to ground passengers - but the arrogant actions of an out-of-control management.
This only serves to demonstrate that all the 'what about the passengers' guff is just convenient propaganda when it can be used to smear pilots.
Mannion and his cheer leaders care not a whit about the disruption they are about to cause their customers.
What really matters to them is the shareholders, and their own 'performance' bonus.
The shareholders are the only parties his team have mentioned of late, and only to crow that they have their support for the lockout. No talk of passenger disruption. No apology. Just triumphalist rhetoric.
This further demonstrates the imbecility of any argument that 'whats good for business is good for customers'.
No pilot should ever feel guilty for defending his or her career.
Remember this the next time we hear the 'what about the passengers' wheeze from the loopers on PPRuNe - its spin, nothing more.
They only care about beating you - whatever the cost to the public.
What about the passengers in this lockout?
We usually get lots of 'outrage' from the 'what about the passengers' crowd at this stage in a dispute.
Strange, isn't it, how silent those voice are right now?
The reason of course is that this time it isn't legitimate strike action by pilots which is about to ground passengers - but the arrogant actions of an out-of-control management.
This only serves to demonstrate that all the 'what about the passengers' guff is just convenient propaganda when it can be used to smear pilots.
Mannion and his cheer leaders care not a whit about the disruption they are about to cause their customers.
What really matters to them is the shareholders, and their own 'performance' bonus.
The shareholders are the only parties his team have mentioned of late, and only to crow that they have their support for the lockout. No talk of passenger disruption. No apology. Just triumphalist rhetoric.
This further demonstrates the imbecility of any argument that 'whats good for business is good for customers'.
No pilot should ever feel guilty for defending his or her career.
Remember this the next time we hear the 'what about the passengers' wheeze from the loopers on PPRuNe - its spin, nothing more.
They only care about beating you - whatever the cost to the public.
Last edited by CaptKremin; 14th Oct 2007 at 03:42.
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Do you think the shareholders shouldn't matter to them?
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Industrial action
Hey folks a question, have you 'the EI pilot group' and/or IALPA gone media on this. I see the Irish Indie once a week and nothing, and don't get RTE.
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Competition and Shareholders
What you are really talking about here is shareholder return/value and competition.
From mgt's perpspective they have 2 masters to answer to - consumers who want lower prices and shareholders who want a decent return on their money. The airline game like all others these days appears to be in a race to the bottom. Yes EI may return a €20 million cost saving this year and yes the T&C's will have been changed. Next year it will be another dept etc etc.
At the end of the day Mr. Mannion or indeed any other managing director will have to carry out the same activity. Unfortunately I don't beleive that management have eaten into the core of EI's over staffing etc yet. I deal with parts of EI which shock me as to how handy they have it. On the otherhand I see parts which are stretched to the limit. But then again I suspect you can all point to parts of any company which operate the same way.
If the pilots bring EI to it's knees and they win, it helps make EI less compeditive and then the case of being eaten raises it's head "Eat or be eaten". And of course we all know who the biggest shark in the water is. So I think the case for staff is simple - who do you prefer work for Mr. Mannion or Mr. OLeary?
Cheerio
Shamrogue
From mgt's perpspective they have 2 masters to answer to - consumers who want lower prices and shareholders who want a decent return on their money. The airline game like all others these days appears to be in a race to the bottom. Yes EI may return a €20 million cost saving this year and yes the T&C's will have been changed. Next year it will be another dept etc etc.
At the end of the day Mr. Mannion or indeed any other managing director will have to carry out the same activity. Unfortunately I don't beleive that management have eaten into the core of EI's over staffing etc yet. I deal with parts of EI which shock me as to how handy they have it. On the otherhand I see parts which are stretched to the limit. But then again I suspect you can all point to parts of any company which operate the same way.
If the pilots bring EI to it's knees and they win, it helps make EI less compeditive and then the case of being eaten raises it's head "Eat or be eaten". And of course we all know who the biggest shark in the water is. So I think the case for staff is simple - who do you prefer work for Mr. Mannion or Mr. OLeary?
Cheerio
Shamrogue
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So very absolutely TRUE, no doubt about it.
The ultimate target of both is to scrape the bottom of the barrel. Personalities are peripheral to the core issue. Don't think this is personal.
Will pilots recognise this?
Not likely.
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I have not heard or read much of an update on how the LRC talks are going. However, RTE are reporting this...
"However, it seems likely that Tuesday's threatened stoppage will go ahead after it emerged that management has already hired ten new captains for its planned base in Belfast.
Union sources said they had been unaware of this development throughout the settlement negotiations, which commenced at lunchtime on Saturday."
Just goes to show you the type of stunts that management are trying to pull and why the pilots are so up in arms over their treatment. DECs at Belfast were a major part of the argument between pilots and management and a breach of the existing T&Cs. This development will only stiffen the pilots' resolve. The words 'bad', 'faith' and 'worse' come to mind right now.
Also, from the same report was this...
"Meanwhile, American pilots have pledged up to $1m in support of their Irish colleagues in the event of a lockout."
Many pilots are already prepared to go months out if necessary. This can only
help those who were not already sure. The greatest worry is for the most recent crew who, being the last in would be first out in the event of job losses after a prolonged stoppage. (I imagine management will respect that part of the existing T&Cs if not much else). Interesting times ahead.
"However, it seems likely that Tuesday's threatened stoppage will go ahead after it emerged that management has already hired ten new captains for its planned base in Belfast.
Union sources said they had been unaware of this development throughout the settlement negotiations, which commenced at lunchtime on Saturday."
Just goes to show you the type of stunts that management are trying to pull and why the pilots are so up in arms over their treatment. DECs at Belfast were a major part of the argument between pilots and management and a breach of the existing T&Cs. This development will only stiffen the pilots' resolve. The words 'bad', 'faith' and 'worse' come to mind right now.
Also, from the same report was this...
"Meanwhile, American pilots have pledged up to $1m in support of their Irish colleagues in the event of a lockout."
Many pilots are already prepared to go months out if necessary. This can only
help those who were not already sure. The greatest worry is for the most recent crew who, being the last in would be first out in the event of job losses after a prolonged stoppage. (I imagine management will respect that part of the existing T&Cs if not much else). Interesting times ahead.
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One of the reasons given for the suspension of the seven pilots last week is their failure to assist in the recruitment and training of new pilots; yet now, the airline hires then new pilots without their involvement.
Hiring ten pilots, let alone captains, is likely only to worsen feelings and harden resolve further.
Unfortunately, it does now look as if industrial action is likely - or should we say, the lockout is likely to go ahead. And as far as anyone can tell, EI has made no preparations or plans for alternative flights from Tuesday.
Hiring ten pilots, let alone captains, is likely only to worsen feelings and harden resolve further.
Unfortunately, it does now look as if industrial action is likely - or should we say, the lockout is likely to go ahead. And as far as anyone can tell, EI has made no preparations or plans for alternative flights from Tuesday.