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security? total insanity!!

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security? total insanity!!

Old 2nd Nov 2001, 16:04
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Thumbs down security? total insanity!!

Why Why Why?

All non US private aircraft are banned from US airspace!

How can they possibly justify this, when all other countries are obliged to let US private aircraft enter and operate in there airspace!

We in the UK should ban them all form our airspace untill they wake up and realise that this is not helping there cause!

Not enough that suddenly the IRA members are not allowed to eneter the US, so they were n't terrorists before then were they!

It stinks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOVE AND KISSES THROBER 69
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Old 2nd Nov 2001, 16:26
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Exclamation

69 I couldn't agree more !
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Old 2nd Nov 2001, 16:42
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Hm, yes, it will get very interesting. Remember the upset caused by the american carriers with their older and noisier aircraft when European airports were looking at upping the noise requirements? Let's see what happens next time that one comes up...

Cheers,
/ft
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Old 2nd Nov 2001, 16:56
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Cool

For fear of getting too political...but didn't the USA bank roll the IRA????
Perhaps they are going to carpet bomb Belfast!!
It's not surprising they are talking of disarming now the funds are getting a bit tight
Hypocrisy spings to mind
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Old 2nd Nov 2001, 22:37
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Dear Throbber - you ask "why, why,why?" How do you propose to avoid a "private aircraft" from entering USA airspace and impaling itself in a building somewhere?

THAT IS WHY.

Overreaction by US officials? Probably. But until a solution shows up, the US government is erring on the side of safety and stepping on our "human fights." Unfortunately, we are going to have to give up some of those until solutions are found. So how about proposing a answer to the problem rather than just complaining?

As far as AMBULANCE DRIVER PA38 (see profile) is concerned - I, as an American, greately resent your off the wall assertions and comments.

I thought this was a forum for aviation professionals.

Flying Guy
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Old 2nd Nov 2001, 22:53
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Hey Flying Guy...."those who would give up essential liberties for temporary security, deserve neither liberty nor security." Ben Franklin
You best quit letting the socialist media spoon-feed their pablum to your brain, and start thinking for yourself!
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Old 2nd Nov 2001, 23:01
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My turn to play devils advocate..

Whats to prevent somebody chartering a private aircraft stateside (135 outfit) and doing the same? Or foreign airliners?
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Old 3rd Nov 2001, 01:02
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... or even better buying one or more of the many airliners sitting in the desert at the moment?
 
Old 3rd Nov 2001, 01:31
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If someone charters (135) an aircraft here in the US, I presume that the operator will check the person out. If nothing else - to avoid the loss of his airplane and pilot. If the flight originates from overseas we don't know that it is completely manned by the bad guys.

As far as simply buying a parked airliner and flying it off into the sunset - please get a reality check! It's not THAT simple!
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Old 3rd Nov 2001, 03:31
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Ahhhh..........

The Irony!

The blissful, complete and total satisfaction of listening to that master of satire throber69, leader of the populist "little Englander whiner keep out johnny foreigner" party , being subjected to a dose, a damn good dose, of what he has advocated for everyone else, for years on this forum!

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it mate!

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Old 3rd Nov 2001, 05:48
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Right on HelosRFun - the question to how much of our rights are we willing to give up here in America has gotten a ton of talk by the silly takling heads who are completely out of touch with most of us real folk. There is only one answer whether regarding aircraft/airport security or any other law enforcement/government program requirements - it is AN UNEQUIVOCAL NONE!!! Figure out a way to accomplish the goal without infringing on any rights - those who say we must compromise our rights for any reason are insulting the sacrifice by so many who came before and fought and died so we can have those rights. Giving up our rights for a little security blanket is the easy way - make the political pukes work for their money and figure it out the hard way.
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Old 3rd Nov 2001, 09:09
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fish

"Flying Guy" if you were more of a thinking guy pointless threads like this might not happen.If the USA banned all non-commercial flights for whatever reason then surely the rest rest of the world would be similarly justified.How then could you bomb Afghanistan?
As for PA38 your profound observation that the USA bankrolled the IRA demonstrates that PA38 will be your horizon!

[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: westman ]
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Old 3rd Nov 2001, 09:28
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Flying Guy

Do you seriously believe that charterers carry out a security screen of someone who turns up to hire a light a/c? They'll check the guys licence and medical and recency and take him for a check ride. Any one of the 911 terrorists could have got through that, and indeed did. So unless things have changed post 911 and they are now enforced to security vet people first the same simplicity of hiring a light a/c in the US will remain. In that light, the decision to stop foreign registered light a/c is not alone going to solve that problem.

PP
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Old 3rd Nov 2001, 16:34
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Guess I have to respond to some of this . . .

Relative human rights - I do believe that the feds ought to be able to monitor suspected terrorists communications. Will this be abused? Most likely. But it will probably be effective in the battle against the terrorists. I don't like it either but some concessions have to be made. Carried to the extreme we could protest about baggage checks as an invasion of our right to privacy. Now then, I HATE getting my baggage checked, particularly when I am in uniform. But it does serve a valid purpose.

Pilot Pete, I believe that if a middle eastern man shows up at most charter companies, he will indeed receive more than just a cursory check. Can a potential bad guy still get through? Certainly, but the chances are less.

Westman, you said "If the USA banned all non-commercial flights for whatever reason then surely the rest rest of the world would be similarly justified.How then could you bomb Afghanistan?"

I don't get it.

Finally, and as I sad previously, rather than just complaining - how about proposing some solutions to the problem? Specifically, how do we try to insure that incoming private flights are legit? The same is true for private flights flying into other countries.

Solutions men! Solutions!

Respectfully - Flying Guy
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Old 3rd Nov 2001, 20:50
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Flying Guy,
Who checked out those folks (as Bush keeps calling them)that turned up at a US air field to learn to fly but not take off or land!!!!!! I mean really..... I saw the lady interviewed last night who trained 2 of them and she said, "I did find it strange that they were not interested in take off or landings but just turning".
Could she have been given anymore clues!!!! 1/ Middle eastern. 2/payed cash only 3/ The above bit about flying 4/ 5/ 6/ 7/ It goes on!!! It is unbelievable but true. So I don't believe for a second that it can't be done again but in 20 other ways....
So I think it would be fair to say that 'checking people out' would not be a US strong point just now.


Pete.....

[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: Peter L ]

[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: Peter L ]
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Old 3rd Nov 2001, 23:58
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Okay PeterL,

Your hindsight seems to be working perfectly relative the clues that are, today, so obvious. At least you are a crew menber, it's nice to respond to someone actually engaged in the front lines of the profession of air transport.

You say, "So I think it would be fair to say that 'checking people out' would not be a US strong point just now."

What is the SOLUTION you are proposing? Or are you just wringing your hands and bemoaning what has happened and what may happen?

I say again folks (yes, I hate the way Bush uses that word to describe the terrorists - public speaking sure isn't his strong point - wish Tony Blair could be President) how about proposing . . . SOLUTIONS!

With all the hits I've taken here I have yet to hear one SOLUTION except to leave it the way it was before.

Flying Guy

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Old 4th Nov 2001, 04:28
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F.G.

Indeed hingsight!!! I do admit to having a little too much maybe but wringing my hands!!! No that would be sick and nasty and to be honest you do have a good point about 'whats the solution'. As a chap who has lived in the US (on off for 5/6 years)as a child and much later as an adult I loved it and the people but you were sooo insulated from reality of the big bad world. The solution is: well you are doing it now but unfortunately it took the wake up call of all time(for the US that is) 11th sept.
Now your nation is a lot more frightened, suspicious,uneasy which we over here in Europe have been since the year dot. I grew up in Belfast and the contrast when we moved to the US in 1976 was incredable. It is a sad thing to say but the US has just been woken up by these vile people.(not folks)

As for bush and his speaches well enough said I think. As for Tony Blair I think he is looking for an Oscar and might just win one with his modern day period drama!!!!

Peter L

[ 04 November 2001: Message edited by: Peter L ]
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Old 4th Nov 2001, 17:46
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Flying Guy! Spot on! What is really needed are solutions or at least posive suggestions. Here's how i see the situation;
1. The terrorists are unstoppable. (a truism i'm afraid)
2. They have 'done' commercial aviation and will be unlikely to try another stunt like the last one while there are so many much less secure targets.
3. What is it thats pi**ing these guys off to such an extent they feel driven to do stuff like we saw in New York?
4. Its America's foreign policy of course!

Solution: Introduce, by means of your enormous international diplomatic leverage, a little fairness into what used to be known as Palestine. Stop the wholesale support of everthing the Israeli's are doing to their neighbours (Who used to OWN Israel before they were asked to leave!), and you will be well on the way to pulling the rug from beneath Bin-Liners feet! Without the resentment caused by Uncle Sams thoughtless foreign policy much of the tension in the area will melt away, taking groups like Al-Queda with it. Referring you to point One of my post this will be no bad thing. Just for the record i am neither Arab or Jew myself and am also neither pro or anti either. Its just that the lack of debate on WHY this happened bothers me.
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Old 4th Nov 2001, 20:19
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Angel

Pants on fire and the Flying gay,

are you two related?

How naieve can you get, I pity the pair of you!!

I just happend to be out in birmingham (that's in england and no where near london, any trouble try a MAP) around 10.30 there was an explosion in the busy bar area.

The blood soaked dollars of the US floated in the aftermath of the explosion!!

I highley doubt this was even reported in the US as a republican splinter group was responsible, for the terminally naieve among us that is a terror yes terror group funded primarily by donations from the, yup you guessed it the USA.

So lets use some US foreign policy and carpet bomb some innocent civilians!!!!

BAN THEM BAN THEM ALL

LOVE AND KISSES THROBER 69


[ 04 November 2001: Message edited by: throber69 ]
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Old 4th Nov 2001, 20:49
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Flying gay, rarley have i heard such bo**ocks spouted from one person, thinking about it,it was the last time i talked to a yank.

there is no sense in banning private flights from usa because you will never stop terror, your current behaviour internationally has seen to that.

as the terrorists say themselves, we only have to be lucky once, you have to be lucky all the time.

you now and for ever will have to live with it just like the rest of the world. the most surprising thing is it didnt happen sooner.

it is an utter disgrace that it took this to happen for you to ban people from funding terrorism in your country, because you have been doing it for years and you f**king know it.

ps with out question the largest terrorist organisation in the world is the us government, so perhaps you should not look so far a field for somewhere to bomb
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