A request to To the self appointed 'Guard' (121.5) Police
Guest
Posts: n/a
I've never so heard so much crap spoken on 121.5 as in the UK at the moment - I'm not past there often but have heard numerous weekend warriors bleating that they're "unsure of our position" - trollip! Learn to nav or buy a hundred buck GPS. 121.5 is for emergencies - keep it that way.
Yet again, a so called professional pilot displays ignorance of the air law covering airspace he operates in.
Learn the local air law or stay out of UK airspace - keep it that way.
Yet again, a so called professional pilot displays ignorance of the air law covering airspace he operates in.
Learn the local air law or stay out of UK airspace - keep it that way.
I Have Control
Join Date: May 2004
Location: North-West England
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chill, chaps.
We all get irritated by misusers of the 121.5 freq, but lost SPL/PPL's genuinely need help. Just wish they could be brief and clear when they issue a PAN and request a fix. Long transmissions are only justified if requested by ATC to enable triangulation. The lost sheep must understand the need to use the channel briefly to permit other emergency/urgency traffic access.
Also I do wish they could navigate better. It's not that difficult, surely, in VMC?
We all get irritated by misusers of the 121.5 freq, but lost SPL/PPL's genuinely need help. Just wish they could be brief and clear when they issue a PAN and request a fix. Long transmissions are only justified if requested by ATC to enable triangulation. The lost sheep must understand the need to use the channel briefly to permit other emergency/urgency traffic access.
Also I do wish they could navigate better. It's not that difficult, surely, in VMC?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Also I do wish they could navigate better. It's not that difficult, surely, in VMC?
Roy
I know where you are coming from and since I got my licence in the early 90s I have never bust CAS and only used a training fix once when I couldn't see a waypoint due haze and was aware that I was near the edge of the EGSS zone.
But if you put a SPL or low hour PPL in some of the rubbish that is out there for hire and then let them make their way around SE England using only a stop watch and chart, with every more complex CAS, it is almost inevitable that some will get lost.
I think it is difficult to navigate in VMC for low houred pilots and I believe that the PPL syllabus is inadequate for the 2000s, where there is more CAT and controlled airspace.
I was taught VOR tracking on my PPL and then consolidated that afterwards, before embracing GPS too and learning how to operate that properly.
It is quite dodgy to over rely on any one nav system and I believe that the PPL syllabus should be revised to introduce GPS to back up ded reckoning and pilotage - the latter which can be challenging from 2,000 feet on a hazy day.
I do understand the CAT frustration with the impact of training fixes and pans.
Roy
I know where you are coming from and since I got my licence in the early 90s I have never bust CAS and only used a training fix once when I couldn't see a waypoint due haze and was aware that I was near the edge of the EGSS zone.
But if you put a SPL or low hour PPL in some of the rubbish that is out there for hire and then let them make their way around SE England using only a stop watch and chart, with every more complex CAS, it is almost inevitable that some will get lost.
I think it is difficult to navigate in VMC for low houred pilots and I believe that the PPL syllabus is inadequate for the 2000s, where there is more CAT and controlled airspace.
I was taught VOR tracking on my PPL and then consolidated that afterwards, before embracing GPS too and learning how to operate that properly.
It is quite dodgy to over rely on any one nav system and I believe that the PPL syllabus should be revised to introduce GPS to back up ded reckoning and pilotage - the latter which can be challenging from 2,000 feet on a hazy day.
I do understand the CAT frustration with the impact of training fixes and pans.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The subject of training fixes comes up regularily on here and I tend to go with the advice from D and D themselves.
They want students to use it , so that they get a clear understanding of what capabilities are on the other end of the R/T. They also realise that if people have used it before, they are less likely to be intimidated by it and use it as necessary. It gives them something to do and helps keep them sharp.
Any "professional" pilot who has a problem with this, is daft IMHO. It may be annoying occasionally, but no person has ever died from annoyance, whereas plenty have from ignorance. I know a few people who owe their continuing existance on thios planet to relays on 121.5. I'm only grateful that the crews of the airliners that passed on their messages were listening out, rather than getting het up and turning it off.
Turn it down if it gets in the way, but turn it back up again afterwards.
To the idiots who use 121.5 for chat purposes, please hand in your R/T licences, because you don't deserve to keep them.
They want students to use it , so that they get a clear understanding of what capabilities are on the other end of the R/T. They also realise that if people have used it before, they are less likely to be intimidated by it and use it as necessary. It gives them something to do and helps keep them sharp.
Any "professional" pilot who has a problem with this, is daft IMHO. It may be annoying occasionally, but no person has ever died from annoyance, whereas plenty have from ignorance. I know a few people who owe their continuing existance on thios planet to relays on 121.5. I'm only grateful that the crews of the airliners that passed on their messages were listening out, rather than getting het up and turning it off.
Turn it down if it gets in the way, but turn it back up again afterwards.
To the idiots who use 121.5 for chat purposes, please hand in your R/T licences, because you don't deserve to keep them.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
4HP. I do the same. Approaching London I stop listening to 121.5. - Too distracting.
Of greater concern is sometimes I have to do the same thing over the gulf as it's full of interference.
Of greater concern is sometimes I have to do the same thing over the gulf as it's full of interference.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In reply to the thread starter.
There is a lot of radio traffic on 121.5 for all the wrong reasons. People testing beacons not at the top of the hour, people calling there handing agents, people calling what they think is the next en route controller.
Alot of the time we don't know where the transmittions come from, and a quick call "your transmiiting on guard" usually stops them from repeating the error.
we want them to stop there transmittion as it is very, very distracting - it's like having two people speak to you at exactly the same time, your only going to pick up one conversation.
the other day there was someone blabbing on in french on the frequency over france, 90 % of the people monitoring 121.5 would have turned the volume down so as not to be distracted. Someone told the person that they were " on guard " and a french controller came back and said that he was dealing with an emergency.
I do accept your point about being told of by the guard police, but most guys should and do recognise an emergency on the frequency if the correct terminoligy is used, and the english language, there may be situations where it is preferable to use another language to aid the person in distress.
We as pilots do just need to take a split second more to check the box and frequency before transmitting.
And as for the guys and girls who muck about on the frequency transmitting songs, your in the wrong job mate - the other person in the cockpit should have a word with them and get it stopped.
There is a lot of radio traffic on 121.5 for all the wrong reasons. People testing beacons not at the top of the hour, people calling there handing agents, people calling what they think is the next en route controller.
Alot of the time we don't know where the transmittions come from, and a quick call "your transmiiting on guard" usually stops them from repeating the error.
we want them to stop there transmittion as it is very, very distracting - it's like having two people speak to you at exactly the same time, your only going to pick up one conversation.
the other day there was someone blabbing on in french on the frequency over france, 90 % of the people monitoring 121.5 would have turned the volume down so as not to be distracted. Someone told the person that they were " on guard " and a french controller came back and said that he was dealing with an emergency.
I do accept your point about being told of by the guard police, but most guys should and do recognise an emergency on the frequency if the correct terminoligy is used, and the english language, there may be situations where it is preferable to use another language to aid the person in distress.
We as pilots do just need to take a split second more to check the box and frequency before transmitting.
And as for the guys and girls who muck about on the frequency transmitting songs, your in the wrong job mate - the other person in the cockpit should have a word with them and get it stopped.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: around about
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
seems like I'm in one of the only airlines whose SOP is to not bother monitor 121.5... Would just like to add to the previous posts in saying to those slagging off students and PPLs what would you rather, a few seconds of speech or a G/A cos he's just blundered into the TMA? Its us in the commercial world who cause the majority of the problems!
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Huh huh huh ... what was the question again?
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
123.45 is in use by the French. Heard a conversation on this frequency over Northern France last year which was interrupted by an annoyed French controller advising that it was a sector frequency. For use on the Atlantic only it seems.
I've no problem with the use of 121.5 for any genuine help that he/she may require but constant aggressive "YOU'RE ON GUARD" just makes it worse. Also, surely practise PAN's can be rehearsed in the flying school. If you get your RT licence by a practical test indoors I cannot see why a similar simulation cannot be done for these. Fact is that it is a nuisance and often results in 121.5 not being monitored over busy UK airspace in order to merely hear ATC instructions. Just a thought
I've no problem with the use of 121.5 for any genuine help that he/she may require but constant aggressive "YOU'RE ON GUARD" just makes it worse. Also, surely practise PAN's can be rehearsed in the flying school. If you get your RT licence by a practical test indoors I cannot see why a similar simulation cannot be done for these. Fact is that it is a nuisance and often results in 121.5 not being monitored over busy UK airspace in order to merely hear ATC instructions. Just a thought
I heard the events described in the original posting of this thread and fully agree with the controllers displeasure at the "guard police".
It was obvious that the lost student was under considerable stress, and the controllers' attempts to assist were hindered by these individuals.
I agree that accidental transmissions on 121.5 block the frequency, but only for a very minute percentage of the time. Far more damaging are the constant interruptions when assistance is genuinely required.
"Guard police" are a pain in the neck, and should realise that they may not have the full picture when carrying out their constabulary duties.
Well done to the controller concerned for dealing forcefully with these interfering individuals at the time.
It was obvious that the lost student was under considerable stress, and the controllers' attempts to assist were hindered by these individuals.
I agree that accidental transmissions on 121.5 block the frequency, but only for a very minute percentage of the time. Far more damaging are the constant interruptions when assistance is genuinely required.
"Guard police" are a pain in the neck, and should realise that they may not have the full picture when carrying out their constabulary duties.
Well done to the controller concerned for dealing forcefully with these interfering individuals at the time.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Swanwick
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Snooky. I thank you for your comments, as someone who heard the exchange you obviously appreciate that inappropriate comments on guard do not help the controller or do anything to settle any pilot who has called on 121.5 for assistance.
I dont intend to get embrolied in a debate about 121.5 usage by GA pilots in the UK. It is a FACT that the huge majority of tx on 121.5 are by CAT. Some points I would like to make.
1. When a pilot mistakenly calls a ground unit on 121.5 & recieves a "you're on guard" , you would not believe the amount of times he hears that response as "go ahead" and then launches into his speel about wheelchairs etc often lasting 20 seconds or so. Surely if he got no reply the penny would drop after acouple of calls? I know that when I tx whether as a contoller or when I am flying, if I dont get a response the first thing I do is check my frequency selection.
2. As for complaints about PP calls made within the UK, sorry I have limited sympathy whilst I can hear pilots whistling, singing, chatting, asking for football scores during the world cup and us being sworn at over 121.5 by CAT etc etc. Sort that nonsense out and my view point would be far more sympathetic.
3. In the congested airspace of the UK we actively encourage GA to call D&D 121.5 when they are lost. Part of humanising 121.5 is allowing pilots to make PP calls so that they are familiar with D&D & how we can help should the need arise. If they do get lost, many pilots now quickly declare that fact early on 121.5... often they are inside CAS & we take action to exit CAS and deconflict with CAT. If they werent confident about calling on 121.5, they would spend more time trying to sort themselves out & CAT would be getting unexpeditious recoveries or even go arounds.
4. As for the suggestion of naming & shaming, when ac tx on 121.5 we get a DF fix on that ac. The DF display sits approx 6 inches away from our radar displays which have all ORCAM squawks callsign code converted i.e. your callsign is displayed on our radar. It takes seconds to identify who is saying what........ Incidentally OC LATCC(Mil) was sat next to me a few minutes ago & he is leaning towards the idea of "naming & shaming".
In the 15 mins or so that this has taken me to write there has been one training fix on 121.5 and 11 CAT transmissions.... make that 13!
DD
I dont intend to get embrolied in a debate about 121.5 usage by GA pilots in the UK. It is a FACT that the huge majority of tx on 121.5 are by CAT. Some points I would like to make.
1. When a pilot mistakenly calls a ground unit on 121.5 & recieves a "you're on guard" , you would not believe the amount of times he hears that response as "go ahead" and then launches into his speel about wheelchairs etc often lasting 20 seconds or so. Surely if he got no reply the penny would drop after acouple of calls? I know that when I tx whether as a contoller or when I am flying, if I dont get a response the first thing I do is check my frequency selection.
2. As for complaints about PP calls made within the UK, sorry I have limited sympathy whilst I can hear pilots whistling, singing, chatting, asking for football scores during the world cup and us being sworn at over 121.5 by CAT etc etc. Sort that nonsense out and my view point would be far more sympathetic.
3. In the congested airspace of the UK we actively encourage GA to call D&D 121.5 when they are lost. Part of humanising 121.5 is allowing pilots to make PP calls so that they are familiar with D&D & how we can help should the need arise. If they do get lost, many pilots now quickly declare that fact early on 121.5... often they are inside CAS & we take action to exit CAS and deconflict with CAT. If they werent confident about calling on 121.5, they would spend more time trying to sort themselves out & CAT would be getting unexpeditious recoveries or even go arounds.
4. As for the suggestion of naming & shaming, when ac tx on 121.5 we get a DF fix on that ac. The DF display sits approx 6 inches away from our radar displays which have all ORCAM squawks callsign code converted i.e. your callsign is displayed on our radar. It takes seconds to identify who is saying what........ Incidentally OC LATCC(Mil) was sat next to me a few minutes ago & he is leaning towards the idea of "naming & shaming".
In the 15 mins or so that this has taken me to write there has been one training fix on 121.5 and 11 CAT transmissions.... make that 13!
DD
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi,
Just thought I would add a little story to this thread. Happened back in the late '80's. 0100Z Flying across the desert from Dubai to Cyprus. No VHF then just poor HF.
Had loss of cabin pressure requiring emergency descent to FL140 (MSA), and diversion to CAI.
Tried to get clearance from Jeddah on HF but no reply to Mayday call, so made Mayday on 121.5 advising all traffic that I was making emergency descent. Almost immediately an american voice said " Get off the frequency,you are on guard". Just what I needed!!
A very nice Speedbird pilot explained to him that I was making an emergency transmission and what didn't he understand about the word Mayday repeated three times. He then copied the rest of my message and gave me a Mayday relay to Jeddah.
Just wish that I had got the americans callsign.
Just thought I would add a little story to this thread. Happened back in the late '80's. 0100Z Flying across the desert from Dubai to Cyprus. No VHF then just poor HF.
Had loss of cabin pressure requiring emergency descent to FL140 (MSA), and diversion to CAI.
Tried to get clearance from Jeddah on HF but no reply to Mayday call, so made Mayday on 121.5 advising all traffic that I was making emergency descent. Almost immediately an american voice said " Get off the frequency,you are on guard". Just what I needed!!
A very nice Speedbird pilot explained to him that I was making an emergency transmission and what didn't he understand about the word Mayday repeated three times. He then copied the rest of my message and gave me a Mayday relay to Jeddah.
Just wish that I had got the americans callsign.
Diddley Dee:
I really do think this nonsense has gone on long enough. I have already suggested on a previous thread that you should name and shame the perpetrators of this childish behaviour. Until you do, nothing will ever change.
In the first instance, you need to address the Flight Operations Director of the company concerned. If that does not do the trick, then you should copy your complaint to the CAA.
There is no reason on earth why you and your colleaugues should have to put up with such infantile and unprofessional behaviour. You cannot reason with cretins.
I really do think this nonsense has gone on long enough. I have already suggested on a previous thread that you should name and shame the perpetrators of this childish behaviour. Until you do, nothing will ever change.
In the first instance, you need to address the Flight Operations Director of the company concerned. If that does not do the trick, then you should copy your complaint to the CAA.
There is no reason on earth why you and your colleaugues should have to put up with such infantile and unprofessional behaviour. You cannot reason with cretins.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Swanwick
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd like to clarify a point I made above. When I refer to naming & shaming, I do not mean London Centre going out on 121.5 & transmitting at the time "Wobblegob airways 123 please cease tx on guard", we would then be contributing to the problem ourselves. I am only referring to when an ac actively interferes with our operational use of 121.5, then I think we must consider identifying the alledged "offender" and filing against the ac. One thing that London Centre are not nor do we wish to become, is the ATC "guard Police".
DD
DD
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: At the end of the Met line
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Coming across the Irish Sea this eve D&D on 121.5 tries to raise a Swiss a/c. Immediately after the first transmission, an american voice replies "you're on guard". No Sh*t sherlock.
Swiss replies after second attempt - problem solved.
Americans like to play police - a lot. Would rarely hear a Brit "policing" the airwaves. Taking cover.......
Swiss replies after second attempt - problem solved.
Americans like to play police - a lot. Would rarely hear a Brit "policing" the airwaves. Taking cover.......
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately Diddley Dee, if ATC don't become the "guard police" who else will?
I'm fed up with hearing the constant calls on 121.5. If it is a mistaken call to the handling agents, then so be it. We've all stuffed up R/T calls at some point, but as has been mentioned before, the "guard police" can make it worse. Shut up and let the person learn from their mistake rather than compunding the issue.
Just have a bit of discipline and keep your mike shut unless you need to make a call.
I'm fed up with hearing the constant calls on 121.5. If it is a mistaken call to the handling agents, then so be it. We've all stuffed up R/T calls at some point, but as has been mentioned before, the "guard police" can make it worse. Shut up and let the person learn from their mistake rather than compunding the issue.
Just have a bit of discipline and keep your mike shut unless you need to make a call.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Oop North, UK
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TB,
there are a couple of reasons to monitor Guard, one is if you are for some reason not listening out on the correct frequency for any reason, this might be because you have turned the volume down whilst doing a PA, selected the incorrect frequency and gone out of range of the old one or you could be a VFR aircraft about to stray into CAS in these cases ATC or a intercepting aircraft will try and contact you on Guard.
Another reason to monitor is to listen out for any other aircraft in trouble, it may be they are on the ground or in the sea and unable to contact ground services direct, an aircraft at height will be able to pick up their tx and relay it on to the emergency services.
there are a couple of reasons to monitor Guard, one is if you are for some reason not listening out on the correct frequency for any reason, this might be because you have turned the volume down whilst doing a PA, selected the incorrect frequency and gone out of range of the old one or you could be a VFR aircraft about to stray into CAS in these cases ATC or a intercepting aircraft will try and contact you on Guard.
Another reason to monitor is to listen out for any other aircraft in trouble, it may be they are on the ground or in the sea and unable to contact ground services direct, an aircraft at height will be able to pick up their tx and relay it on to the emergency services.