320/737 25-year-old commander and 19-year-old first officer
Topslide 6:
Your clarifications made more sense to me.
When people deduce their own conclusions about sweeping statements which simply try to contrast various levels of pilot experience, hundreds (thousands?) of misunderstandings have emerged over the years on Pprune and other websites, "Flying" and "Aviation Week & ST" magazines. Maybe even in the old "MAC (now AMC) Flyer" and the Navy's "Approach" magazine. Your accurate comments, along with those of Alpine Flyer etc explained your thoughts and put them in better context.
Some pilots' comments regard views from the (our own) past, looking forwards. Older guys are sometimes misunderstood because readers therefore turn the perspective "clock" backwards-but this is often not the intent, or the thinking.
An average (or less..) pilot can become average, maybe much better after various types of experience (more aircraft and city-pairs with weather).
The more natural younger pilots who are really aggressive learners and much more astute (FE and/or First Officer) observers than I ever was, naturally become quite excellent pilots after many years.
Many of us simply feel that almost everyone gets much better with age etc-but-this does Not imply that many young pilots are not quite good, whether as GA Instructor, airline FO, Captain, whatever. Therein lies at least one common misunderstanding.
I appreciate your diplomatic effort to explain the perspective of a younger, highly capable pilot.
We had a guy who made CV-580 Captain at the end of his (first) year on probation! Extremely rare here for a large airline in the mid-80s.
He was considered a very natural pilot(still is), always in tune with common sense and procedures. He always sees the big picture from various angles.
Your clarifications made more sense to me.
When people deduce their own conclusions about sweeping statements which simply try to contrast various levels of pilot experience, hundreds (thousands?) of misunderstandings have emerged over the years on Pprune and other websites, "Flying" and "Aviation Week & ST" magazines. Maybe even in the old "MAC (now AMC) Flyer" and the Navy's "Approach" magazine. Your accurate comments, along with those of Alpine Flyer etc explained your thoughts and put them in better context.
Some pilots' comments regard views from the (our own) past, looking forwards. Older guys are sometimes misunderstood because readers therefore turn the perspective "clock" backwards-but this is often not the intent, or the thinking.
An average (or less..) pilot can become average, maybe much better after various types of experience (more aircraft and city-pairs with weather).
The more natural younger pilots who are really aggressive learners and much more astute (FE and/or First Officer) observers than I ever was, naturally become quite excellent pilots after many years.
Many of us simply feel that almost everyone gets much better with age etc-but-this does Not imply that many young pilots are not quite good, whether as GA Instructor, airline FO, Captain, whatever. Therein lies at least one common misunderstanding.
I appreciate your diplomatic effort to explain the perspective of a younger, highly capable pilot.
We had a guy who made CV-580 Captain at the end of his (first) year on probation! Extremely rare here for a large airline in the mid-80s.
He was considered a very natural pilot(still is), always in tune with common sense and procedures. He always sees the big picture from various angles.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 28th Aug 2007 at 04:09.
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To Dessa
Agree with u ...add another 500 from my side it will be an expat captain in command making a hole in the ground....In the last few years with the boom in india got loads of expats in india... and guess what most incidents/accidents had an expat captain... also with experience in europe/usa... Maybe getting bottom of the barrel to come hear .. also indian f/o transition from a Cessna 152 to B-737 directly ..we dont have much of general aviation... but recently getting expat f/os they are not too hot too..
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Interesting subject.
In my humble point of view, 1500hrs although on paper may meet the requirements, is simply not enough to warrant a command position. Whether you are 25 or 55 does not matter, 1500 is the key figure. Of course with age you get life experience which is more than useful, however if you have the right outlook in life from the start and recieve the correct training, what is wrong with a youthful Captain?
In my last job we had a 23 year old chap as Capt on the ATR, he had been flying since his parents had first decided to ´have an early night´ and by word of mouth and experience was / is a very good pilot. Sure, for me at the start it was strange to see a younger guy than myself (me being 24 at the time) Captaining such a plane, but I soon realised why he was in that position.
For me as a recently qualified FO, at 1500hrs I will be nowhere near ready for a shot at Command, I know this and have never thought other wise nor would I want it. I am learning my trade, I make small mistakes, but over all I am pleased with the way things are going and have no illusions of grandeur.
I would like to think that I am doing a good job as an FO, but for me aged 25, Captaincy is a long way off, with much experience to be gained and things to learn on the way.
Its wrong to generalise, some people aged 25 are ready, some like myself are far from that, some will never be ready. Take each individual case on its own merits and if someone has acheived Captaincy at a young age on the basis of his / her ability and experience then credit to them
In my humble point of view, 1500hrs although on paper may meet the requirements, is simply not enough to warrant a command position. Whether you are 25 or 55 does not matter, 1500 is the key figure. Of course with age you get life experience which is more than useful, however if you have the right outlook in life from the start and recieve the correct training, what is wrong with a youthful Captain?
In my last job we had a 23 year old chap as Capt on the ATR, he had been flying since his parents had first decided to ´have an early night´ and by word of mouth and experience was / is a very good pilot. Sure, for me at the start it was strange to see a younger guy than myself (me being 24 at the time) Captaining such a plane, but I soon realised why he was in that position.
For me as a recently qualified FO, at 1500hrs I will be nowhere near ready for a shot at Command, I know this and have never thought other wise nor would I want it. I am learning my trade, I make small mistakes, but over all I am pleased with the way things are going and have no illusions of grandeur.
I would like to think that I am doing a good job as an FO, but for me aged 25, Captaincy is a long way off, with much experience to be gained and things to learn on the way.
Its wrong to generalise, some people aged 25 are ready, some like myself are far from that, some will never be ready. Take each individual case on its own merits and if someone has acheived Captaincy at a young age on the basis of his / her ability and experience then credit to them
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8846
Sorry its taken me a couple of days to get back to you, been busy working, just for a change ...
Non Techs. A vast area covering all the management and airmanship aspects (eg SA, Capacity, Prioritisation) of flying an aircraft and like any other skill they can be taught and developed. Otherwise why have CRM courses or task management tools such as ANC, DODAR, GRADE, CCCCC etc and why have the assessment process score these skills if they cannot be taught. Obviously, as with any skill, the more you practise the better you get especially if you are guided as you develop. I believe that proper guidance and instruction can accelerate the development process. You see that all the time in sports. What sometimes worries me is that once you qualify in the RHS or the LHS you are pretty much left to your own devices by the training system save for recurrent sim and SEPs which tend to be dominated by regulatery requirements.
FOs would develop more rapidly if given more in the way of development flights and sims and the same goes for Captains. Snag is that all costs money. Much more could also be made of video analysis of how you managed a scenario in the sim. I'd also feel a-lot more discussion and education could take place around incidents and the lessons to learn from them especially ones that happen on your own fleet and operation. Perhaps an extra day on SEPs purely on flight safety, crm and management as well as appropriate publications.
In the RAF I did sims every 2 months and benefitted greatly from them and as a crew we spent many hours together discussing and rehearsing our response to various situations. Without these things I would not have developed as quickly.
All that said you can't spoon feed people, if they aren't motivated and don't work hard then no amount of effort on the part of the instructor will change a-lot.
Hope that makes some sort of sense, I'm a touch bleary eyed at the mo.
Oh and kontroler flying a military aircraft is not just about flying skills either. I do realise Guy Gibson and Bader were not popular with all by a long shot. Point was that they were young men in positions of huge responsibility who discharged their duties very effectively. I was not suggested a commercial pilot should seek to emulate their management styles.
Sorry its taken me a couple of days to get back to you, been busy working, just for a change ...
Non Techs. A vast area covering all the management and airmanship aspects (eg SA, Capacity, Prioritisation) of flying an aircraft and like any other skill they can be taught and developed. Otherwise why have CRM courses or task management tools such as ANC, DODAR, GRADE, CCCCC etc and why have the assessment process score these skills if they cannot be taught. Obviously, as with any skill, the more you practise the better you get especially if you are guided as you develop. I believe that proper guidance and instruction can accelerate the development process. You see that all the time in sports. What sometimes worries me is that once you qualify in the RHS or the LHS you are pretty much left to your own devices by the training system save for recurrent sim and SEPs which tend to be dominated by regulatery requirements.
FOs would develop more rapidly if given more in the way of development flights and sims and the same goes for Captains. Snag is that all costs money. Much more could also be made of video analysis of how you managed a scenario in the sim. I'd also feel a-lot more discussion and education could take place around incidents and the lessons to learn from them especially ones that happen on your own fleet and operation. Perhaps an extra day on SEPs purely on flight safety, crm and management as well as appropriate publications.
In the RAF I did sims every 2 months and benefitted greatly from them and as a crew we spent many hours together discussing and rehearsing our response to various situations. Without these things I would not have developed as quickly.
All that said you can't spoon feed people, if they aren't motivated and don't work hard then no amount of effort on the part of the instructor will change a-lot.
Hope that makes some sort of sense, I'm a touch bleary eyed at the mo.
Oh and kontroler flying a military aircraft is not just about flying skills either. I do realise Guy Gibson and Bader were not popular with all by a long shot. Point was that they were young men in positions of huge responsibility who discharged their duties very effectively. I was not suggested a commercial pilot should seek to emulate their management styles.
