near mid air collision KLAS?
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near mid air collision KLAS?
a friend who was piloting a 757 into KLAS yesterday (aug 12) witnessed:
SWA 737 cleared for takeoff...second southwest cleared for takeoff to maintain visual sep with preceeding SWA 737...rolled while preceeding 737 still on ground but accelerating for takeoff.
Third swa 737 was cleared to land on intersecting runway, but for unknown reasons went around.
ATC yelling to second SWA 737 to stop climb (100 to 300 feet agl) and they did...the third SWA 737 went around over the top of the second.
phew.
anyone hear about this incident?
SWA 737 cleared for takeoff...second southwest cleared for takeoff to maintain visual sep with preceeding SWA 737...rolled while preceeding 737 still on ground but accelerating for takeoff.
Third swa 737 was cleared to land on intersecting runway, but for unknown reasons went around.
ATC yelling to second SWA 737 to stop climb (100 to 300 feet agl) and they did...the third SWA 737 went around over the top of the second.
phew.
anyone hear about this incident?
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Anyway, http://www.liveatc.net/archive.php might (or might not) have something. Just narrow the time down a little bit.
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Do you find that misunderstandings regarding call signs are more prevelant when there is company traffic about?
For example, the pilot of the second SWA may have been flying the first flight the day before and mixed up his call sign.
I know that this wasn't the case, but Southwest and other airlines having so many flights these days it must become confusing at times.
For example, the pilot of the second SWA may have been flying the first flight the day before and mixed up his call sign.
I know that this wasn't the case, but Southwest and other airlines having so many flights these days it must become confusing at times.
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Something that I think many of us have experienced over there is that sometimes the controllers try to be just a bit too slick and leave too little room for contingencies... On one occasion (Omaha) we were told twice that we had a 73 close behind on finals and to keep the speed up which we did.. we landed and while on the roll-out heard the 73 going around... turned out that the twr had cleared an MD83 to line up after we'd touched down ! Then I was asked by the tower to contact them by phone and told that they were forwarding a report to the FAA on the basis that our a/c did not clear the runway quickly enough ! The FAA guy listened to the tapes and came down on the twr controllers like a Machine of Fate.. apparantly the previous couple of hours on the tape had been a catalogue poor handling.
Taking too long on the Runway
I've never haerd that one before .. as a mere PPL perhaps I haven't been in the right places.
My opinion is that if I am legitimately on the runway then everybody else has to wait for me to move (unless I have parked and got out to shoot rabbits or something.)
If ATC have put somebody too close behind me .. and the other guy (who as aircraft commander still has to exercise good airmanship) hasn't said "hey we are getting a bit close - we wanna go round" .. it's up to them to sort out.
DGG
My opinion is that if I am legitimately on the runway then everybody else has to wait for me to move (unless I have parked and got out to shoot rabbits or something.)
If ATC have put somebody too close behind me .. and the other guy (who as aircraft commander still has to exercise good airmanship) hasn't said "hey we are getting a bit close - we wanna go round" .. it's up to them to sort out.
DGG
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DAVE GITTINS
That was exactly the comment made by the FAA guy to me when he came back after writing the report... "when you land that's YOUR runway... the rest is THEIR problem" ... Obviously this has to be taken sensibly, no one expects you to bring an aircraft to a halt on the runway while the NHP reads out the after landing checks but yes... it's their problem and in this case they created the problem.
That was exactly the comment made by the FAA guy to me when he came back after writing the report... "when you land that's YOUR runway... the rest is THEIR problem" ... Obviously this has to be taken sensibly, no one expects you to bring an aircraft to a halt on the runway while the NHP reads out the after landing checks but yes... it's their problem and in this case they created the problem.
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poorwonderingwun
quite right...there is always a chance a plane will abort a takeoff, blow a tire, or a much more serious problems.
especially at airports like KLAS...higher elevation, very hot, short turn around times and you might have overheated brakes/tires etc.
pilots must always have an alternative course of action ...but sometimes it seems that the only alternative that ATC has is a collision.
I stand by the story I posted, as my friend of some 27 years, that I taught to fly, made the report and witnessed it from his jet.
quite right...there is always a chance a plane will abort a takeoff, blow a tire, or a much more serious problems.
especially at airports like KLAS...higher elevation, very hot, short turn around times and you might have overheated brakes/tires etc.
pilots must always have an alternative course of action ...but sometimes it seems that the only alternative that ATC has is a collision.
I stand by the story I posted, as my friend of some 27 years, that I taught to fly, made the report and witnessed it from his jet.
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bomarc, who is it your friend flies for and where was his flight to LAS from? I think we can find the time of the incident without bothering your friend too much.
Pegase Driver
Third swa 737 was cleared to land on intersecting runway, but for unknown reasons went around.
As to pushing departures beyond limits ( not to mention wake turbulence ) this is another serious but separate problem . But as long as airport managers will praise ATC for getting 60a/c an hour out of a single runway and use this as a commercial advantage, this is not going to stop but also is going to end up badly one day.
There was a time , not that long ago, when the USA were the leaders in the world as far as ATC was concerned . What happenned ?
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Bomarc
I believe you are correct. We have got so used to routine operations that it is easy to forget that things do go wrong; errors of judgement are made; failures happen. Loading the runways and ATC system to maximum capacity is therefore unwise because it leaves no boltholes. It is time for the industry to recognise that.
.4
I believe you are correct. We have got so used to routine operations that it is easy to forget that things do go wrong; errors of judgement are made; failures happen. Loading the runways and ATC system to maximum capacity is therefore unwise because it leaves no boltholes. It is time for the industry to recognise that.
.4
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ATCwatcher:
where did america go wrong? I'll tell you of three Federal Govt. decisions that have lead us here:
1. late 1970's, President Carter signed deregulation of the airline industry into law.
2. early 1980's President Regan fired all the air traffic controllers (FAA started from square one, FAA agenda was to never let this happen again...therefore spend money on machines not people)
3. 2000...Congress did away with slot controls at major US Airports...anyone can fly anywhere in the US...FAA slot restrictions for ATC purposes are just reccomendations. Airport X can handle 60 movements an hour...schedule 80 or 90 and things will always run late.
Welcome to capitalism in the jet age.
120.4...what is a bolthole? I think I know what you mean, but we are seperated by a common language.
In the US, the industry won't get it, unless we re-regulate the industry...Airport X can handle 60 movements an hour...the New Civil Aeronautics board says: fine, we will allow 50 schedules flights, we will demand no planes smaller than 110 seats, and encourage connecting flights through hub airports an hour away. Things will run on time, prices will go up and I would be happy to pay more for a flight that runs on time.
LET alone avoid the pushing of ATC controllers to keep things moving at the expense of near mid airs...or worse.
fly safe!
B
where did america go wrong? I'll tell you of three Federal Govt. decisions that have lead us here:
1. late 1970's, President Carter signed deregulation of the airline industry into law.
2. early 1980's President Regan fired all the air traffic controllers (FAA started from square one, FAA agenda was to never let this happen again...therefore spend money on machines not people)
3. 2000...Congress did away with slot controls at major US Airports...anyone can fly anywhere in the US...FAA slot restrictions for ATC purposes are just reccomendations. Airport X can handle 60 movements an hour...schedule 80 or 90 and things will always run late.
Welcome to capitalism in the jet age.
120.4...what is a bolthole? I think I know what you mean, but we are seperated by a common language.
In the US, the industry won't get it, unless we re-regulate the industry...Airport X can handle 60 movements an hour...the New Civil Aeronautics board says: fine, we will allow 50 schedules flights, we will demand no planes smaller than 110 seats, and encourage connecting flights through hub airports an hour away. Things will run on time, prices will go up and I would be happy to pay more for a flight that runs on time.
LET alone avoid the pushing of ATC controllers to keep things moving at the expense of near mid airs...or worse.
fly safe!
B
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Hi Bomarc
A bolthole is a safe haven, shelter, place of retreat; i.e. somewhere to run to when it's all gone "pearshaped", as we say over here (i.e. instead of perfectly round).
I think you sum things up pretty well. Unfortunately, the bean counters see spare capacity as wasted capacity whereas we all here see it as the bolthole that gives you a way out when things have gone wrong. The fact is that we have all got so very good at delivering the very maximium physically possible off a runway that it is now expected to be the norm.
Heathrow is the only sector I know in the UK where the traffic is deliberately and openly flowed above the capacity of the runway (usually the forecast landing rate, plus 2 per hour) with the specific intent of pressurising the system into high landing rates. I have nothing at all against efficiency - in fact I called for improved ATC performance at Gatwick a number of years ago because spacing was nothing like as good as Heathrow - but that does not mean backing ATC into a corner that they have no way out of.
I am sure it will be exactly the same in the US. We need a system-wide change in our attitude to capacity.
.4
A bolthole is a safe haven, shelter, place of retreat; i.e. somewhere to run to when it's all gone "pearshaped", as we say over here (i.e. instead of perfectly round).
I think you sum things up pretty well. Unfortunately, the bean counters see spare capacity as wasted capacity whereas we all here see it as the bolthole that gives you a way out when things have gone wrong. The fact is that we have all got so very good at delivering the very maximium physically possible off a runway that it is now expected to be the norm.
Heathrow is the only sector I know in the UK where the traffic is deliberately and openly flowed above the capacity of the runway (usually the forecast landing rate, plus 2 per hour) with the specific intent of pressurising the system into high landing rates. I have nothing at all against efficiency - in fact I called for improved ATC performance at Gatwick a number of years ago because spacing was nothing like as good as Heathrow - but that does not mean backing ATC into a corner that they have no way out of.
I am sure it will be exactly the same in the US. We need a system-wide change in our attitude to capacity.
.4
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Unfortunately, the way ATC looks at it you're cleared to land, not cleared to go around. They aren't required to protect the airspace that you'd occupy in the event of a go around in VMC.
LAHSO isn't the problem, either. You could shorten both LAS runways just enough so that there's no intersection and the problem would be the same.
LAHSO isn't the problem, either. You could shorten both LAS runways just enough so that there's no intersection and the problem would be the same.
Pegase Driver
Bomarc, I was sarcastic when I asked what happenned , but I agree with you.
On the fact that modern managers do not know the nature of the job they are in : I do not like much politicians and management in general , but one has to remain realistic as to the game being played and who to shoot at for what goes wrong.
I have met on 2 occasions your current administrator, Marion Blakey , first in San Diego, in 2002 when she was just nominated , and more recently in France.
At the begining she was full of good intentions and was led to beleive she could change things, and she had some good ideas . " It's time to bing America back into the international Aviation Communauty in a leading role " she said then if I remember.
When I met her recently she had been burned by many years of desillusion and political battles lost in your congress . 80% of her job is on getting things funded and convincing people that you need money to run a proper ATC. Most of the other 20% is fighting internal fights within the FAA, extinguishing fires ( your vist to Mrs Garvey fell into that category I guess) and people management.
Do you need to be a pilot or a controller to do this, or can a (good) Lawyer do this better ?
The real issue is what you said : we live in a world which is getting more and more liberal, and money and return on investment runs the show. The Southwest story here is just an annecdote .Nobody other than the end of the line operators ( pilots and controllers) get burned. Only when 2 hit each other and the media gets in , do the real players get shot at.
But they almost all survive to make another movie , just like in Hollywood.
On the fact that modern managers do not know the nature of the job they are in : I do not like much politicians and management in general , but one has to remain realistic as to the game being played and who to shoot at for what goes wrong.
I have met on 2 occasions your current administrator, Marion Blakey , first in San Diego, in 2002 when she was just nominated , and more recently in France.
At the begining she was full of good intentions and was led to beleive she could change things, and she had some good ideas . " It's time to bing America back into the international Aviation Communauty in a leading role " she said then if I remember.
When I met her recently she had been burned by many years of desillusion and political battles lost in your congress . 80% of her job is on getting things funded and convincing people that you need money to run a proper ATC. Most of the other 20% is fighting internal fights within the FAA, extinguishing fires ( your vist to Mrs Garvey fell into that category I guess) and people management.
Do you need to be a pilot or a controller to do this, or can a (good) Lawyer do this better ?
The real issue is what you said : we live in a world which is getting more and more liberal, and money and return on investment runs the show. The Southwest story here is just an annecdote .Nobody other than the end of the line operators ( pilots and controllers) get burned. Only when 2 hit each other and the media gets in , do the real players get shot at.
But they almost all survive to make another movie , just like in Hollywood.
foxtrot xray
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Was witness ...and almost participant... in a similar situation at KDCA years ago. Departing behind a 727 on 36(that was the rwy # then); it rolls while a previously cleared-to-land DC 9 about to touch down on 33 decides to go around. (we were holding in position on 36 waiting for the 9 to clear downfield). The two aircraft crossed at the intersection with what apperaed to be about 20 ft vertical separation ( forget who was on top but think it was the -9)while we were expecting to see aluminum and other parts falling out of the sky in front of us.
Stuff happens and happened then too....15 or so years ago.
Stuff happens and happened then too....15 or so years ago.
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Remember guys, 19's and 25's operate on different tower freqs. The aircraft on 19L was given a go around by tower due to crossing takeoff traffic on 25R. Tower let one too many aircraft takeoff then told the 19 landing plane to waveoff, but now you have two aircraft both climbing thus the conflict.