Comair Lexington Crash - NTSB Hearing

[bomarc]

baritone

I just meant that all airlines are likely to have at least two pilots who have problems with positional awareness.

[411A]

The report places heavy responsibility on the pilots, and although other safety aspects are cited, the implied blame is unfair.

Oh, is it really?
It is quite clear to me that the concerned crew fecked up, big time, and were not actually paying attention at the time.
First it was...the crew was not properly rested.
Wrong, they had plenty of rest.
Then it was...the tower controller mainly was responsible.
Nonsense.
Since when is it a normal procedure for crews to takeoff an airline transport aircraft from an unlit runway, at night?
Hello?
We seem to have here pilots who were totally out to lunch, not paying attention to what they were doing, and as a result...bad things happened.
It seems more and more with pilots is general...whether they run off the paved surface and not report same, takeoff (or land) on the wrong runway, it's always...someone elses fault.
Unmitigated BS.
In most cases, the problem originates at the pointy end, simply because some crews just don't give a damn about actually paying attention to what they are doing.
'Oh, we're tired, fatigued, overworked, underpaid'...whatever, get a grip and operate properly, or find another less demanding profession.
The respective Comair crew acted like rank amateurs, and did not deserve to be at the pointy end of a public transport aircraft...period!

[bomarc]

all:

did you read the cvr transcript when it came out awhile ago?

on it, the crew, while talking about non pertinent things, did manage to do the checklist and brief the takeoff

just a few weeks ago, a UAL airbus managed to get onto the runway and Delta had to go around.

I think the whole system needs redoing...the whole point isn't to place blame, but to prevent people from dying in plane crashes, isn't it?

[Dream Land]

Since when is it a normal procedure for crews to takeoff an airline transport aircraft from an unlit runway, at night?
by 411A

I don't think what happened is always as crystal clear as the reports we read, at that time of day, how much ambient light was available, what type of lighting was on, they have several settings, also, this airplane is quite a bit lower than the Trident , at that low angle with all of their lights on, it may not have been that noticeable, remember, there were three pilots on the flight deck, also the airport layout was bizarre.

[Airbubba]

there were three pilots on the flight deck

I think the jumpseat rider was back in the cabin.

[bomarc]

airbubba is correct.

had there been a third set of eyes in the cockpit, who knows if this would have happened at all?

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

@ DreamLand

I don't think what happened is always as crystal clear as the reports we read, at that time of day, how much ambient light was available, what type of lighting was on, they have several settings, also, this airplane is quite a bit lower than the Trident , at that low angle with all of their lights on, it may not have been that noticeable, remember, there were three pilots on the flight deck, also the airport layout was bizarre.

In the NTSB video of the board meeting, at about 01:26 to 01:28 into the video, there are two photos showing the way the two runways looked when lined up. The following are screen shots of the video.




(Unfortunately neither image is in the presentation material published)

[wes_wall]

I am retired, and have been out of the cockpit for a number of years, so I guess I have to agree with 411. However, I spent 30 plus years at the front, and I can say I never took off at night on an unlighted runway. Too bad about the FBW airplanes. I can remember having to update the instruments with the compass, so heading vs rwy heading was checked, and then cross checked, sometimes by three crewmen. Most clearances were to maintain rwy hdg, thus hdg bugs were set accordingly also. No mater the conditions, line up on the correct rwy is basic blocking and tackling. Not much mistaking the rwy shown in the pics above.

[Dream Land]

blocking and tackling. Not much mistaking the rwy shown in the pics above.

Well let me congratulate you for safely taking off on the proper runways, maybe on the equipment you were flying it was, basic block and tackling for you, DC-6? Personally, I can't ever remember referring to the compass systems to verify that I was on the proper runway, verification for me me is something you're doing on the way to the runway, if you are not sure about what runway it is, why are you on it in the first place?

x
The pilots in Lexington saw no identifying number on the runway by the way. The pictures look very similar to me.

[wingview]

http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2007/072607.htm
QUOTE]"This accident was caused by poor human performance," said NTSB Chairman Mark V. Rosenker. "Forty-nine lives could have been saved if the flightcrew had been concentrating on the important task of operating the airplane in a safe manner."[/QUOTE]
So easy to say... just forget about the rest...

[Flight Safety]

411A is absolutely right.

Think about this for a minute. The "system" is always in need of updating. The Regs need work, getting notams to pilots needs work, ATC procedures need work, airport construction procedures need work, aircraft certification standards need work, airline flight training needs work, pilot work schedules need work, everything related to flying needs work to improve the business of flying.

These issues are important to be sure, but how do you safely mitigate all the things that need work, while you're advocating for these changes? By paying attention to what you're doing while you're flying!!! You have 2 choices, get killed while some of these issues are being worked and blame the "system" for failing you, or be professional and focus on flying safely while you push for some of the changes.

Maybe you've allowed our litigious society to change you're thinking towards blaming others instead of taking personal responsibility for the things that happen. In aviation you adopt this thinking at your peril, because everyone in aviation can make a mistake. Similarly, defensive driving courses teach personal responsibility for your own safe driving, to protect yourself from the mistakes of others.

Remember these flying priorities: Aviate, Navigate, Communicate?

There is a similar Pilot Responsibility Priority: Fly Safely first, Change the System afterwards. Get this backwards, and your widow and surviving children can blame the system for you.

[bomarc]

Aviate. shoulda gone to firewall power and hauled back on the yoke instead of saying: WHOA

Navigate: Setting runway heading on the "bug" prior to taxi...that would have given pause to think. Done while briefing the departure

communicate: hey tower, how come the lights aren't on.


TWO out of the three would have been done with good training, good supervision of pilots by check airman staff.

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

Aviate. shoulda gone to firewall power and hauled back on the yoke instead of saying: WHOA

To be fair, the NTSB states that at the same time as the Captain (PNF) said "V1-rotate-whoa" the FO/PF did pull full back stick. Without knowing more than we do now, there's no way of knowing what N1 they were at for TO power, nor how much firewall margin there might have been. Or, for that matter, whether they DID firewall the engines or not. It's never been said they didn, but neither has it been said they didn't, to my knowledge.

[prospector]

Stop trying to find excuses, the job was to take off on the assigned runway, they did not, and if anyone that is sitting at the sharp end cannot see any difference in the photo's shown of the runways in question then they should be elsewhere.

[Dream Land]

Stop trying to find excuses, the job was to take off on the assigned runway, they did not, and if anyone that is sitting at the sharp end cannot see any difference in the photo's shown of the runways in question then they should be elsewhere.

How much time do you have in the RJ, please explain the big difference you see.

[411A]

Noting the runway heading prior to brakes release...

A very long time ago, that old airline, PanAmerican, had, as the absolute last item on their before takeoff checklist...

Configuration check.

1. Flaps set according to the takeoff data selected.
2. Speed brake lever, down.
3. Stab trim in the takeoff range.
4. Compasses compared, and heading bug set to the mandated runway heading.

Amazing ain't it...this old and well (then) established airline so long ago considered it so vitally important to check these rather important items.
And, just think, this was not on an old DC-6, it was on every jet airplane in their fleet, 707's 747's 727's etc.

Perhaps we need to go back to basics, and actually check the REALLY important items.

[prospector]

Dreamland.
Is that a serious question?? Rnwy 26 there are no rnwy edge lights, rnwy 22 there very definitely is edge lighting visible.

No RJ time, please advise why this is relevant??

[Dream Land]

First of all, how can you make a comparison if you don't use the same position on the same runway to make a comparison, secondly, I am not familiar with aircraft you have flown, I recall on aircraft such as the Lear and MU2, very bright lights, cockpit view from a low angle, with lighting much brighter than the edge lights while the sun is starting to rise may not be as big of a clue as you think. How many times have very experienced crews taken off from taxiways, or other taxi mistakes, like I previously posted, the layout was bizarre, improper signs etc. 411A makes a good point, and I understand it is ultimately a pilot responsibility, the airport environment nowadays is very rushed, T/O clearances are given with aircraft inside of five miles, we no longer use HSI's etc. Remember the FO was out of the loop during the taxi, usually when I am taxiing in a complex environment, we both have charts out and verifying our position throughout the taxi phase.
x
(edit, my point is really pointless about the edge lights since they did notice they were not lit, had I read the transcipt I would have known)

[bomarc]

mad flight scientist:

in the cvr transcript you can hear/read that the pilots selected a FLEX takeoff (reduced power that is)

so they were somewhat away from full power and even farther away from firewall power/thrust.

also, windshear recovery procedures on jets encountering wind shear on takeoff while on runway include rotating prior to v1/r

...

I do wonder why comair didn't train pilots to check compass...and select localizer to ID runway centerline...even on takeoff...I've done that many times.

[411A]

also, windshear recovery procedures on jets encountering wind shear on takeoff while on runway include rotating prior to v1/r

Really?

What sort of 'jet' does this guy actually fly, I wonder...provided of couse that he is really at the controls at the pointy end?