Pilot shortage affecting flight safety, analysts say
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Quote -A total of 1,500 hours of flight time are required for a license to co-pilot a commercial jet."
Under FAA, FAR 121.437 for a flag or supplemental operation requiring 3 or more pilots, any SIC needs to have an ATP and type rated. The FAA requiees a total of 1,500 hours for an ATP.
The original poster is correct.
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ATPMBA...
Thanks for explaining the 121 Flag and Supplemental Rules.
xxx
However your first sentence, all by itself, would be incorrect (if you would quote rules applicable to domestic air carriers) or in the case of 2 pilot crews of flag and supplemental carriers NOT requiring a third pilot (i.e. shorter flights).
xxx
I could also make a single sentence, that would be correct by itself, as follows...
"An airline jet co-pilot minimum qualification is CPL/IR/ME and 200 hrs total experience" (total required for CPL/IR).
xxx
All people who are pilots know of this, at least basically, but try to explain that to the general public, as presented by the news media... I can imagine an eager reporter writing "the co-pilot did not even have an airline pilot licence"...
xxx
Happy contrails
Thanks for explaining the 121 Flag and Supplemental Rules.
xxx
However your first sentence, all by itself, would be incorrect (if you would quote rules applicable to domestic air carriers) or in the case of 2 pilot crews of flag and supplemental carriers NOT requiring a third pilot (i.e. shorter flights).
xxx
I could also make a single sentence, that would be correct by itself, as follows...
"An airline jet co-pilot minimum qualification is CPL/IR/ME and 200 hrs total experience" (total required for CPL/IR).
xxx
All people who are pilots know of this, at least basically, but try to explain that to the general public, as presented by the news media... I can imagine an eager reporter writing "the co-pilot did not even have an airline pilot licence"...
xxx
Happy contrails
Someone stated that airlines will do anything to avoid a crash (Permafrost ATPL?).
Over here in the US, some narrowbody airframes might be insured for up to about half a billion dollars. If insurance is affordable and the Upper/Middle Mgmt. 'gentlemen' at my top-notch airline now have their hands on the hundreds of millions worth of free company stock, just what incentive do they have to feel responsible for an aircraft (loaded with women and children) which runs out of luck, connected to the insatiable financial greed which led to uncontrolled outsourcing, by way of unbridled contempt for invaluable staff experience?
The corporate top dogs here only care about data and numbers, some are 'armed' with law degrees and speak only using grossly-distorted half-truths and lies to the media. Therefore, they can always pin liability on the pilots or others who are considered the Untouchables. This appears to be their job.
Over here in the US, some narrowbody airframes might be insured for up to about half a billion dollars. If insurance is affordable and the Upper/Middle Mgmt. 'gentlemen' at my top-notch airline now have their hands on the hundreds of millions worth of free company stock, just what incentive do they have to feel responsible for an aircraft (loaded with women and children) which runs out of luck, connected to the insatiable financial greed which led to uncontrolled outsourcing, by way of unbridled contempt for invaluable staff experience?
The corporate top dogs here only care about data and numbers, some are 'armed' with law degrees and speak only using grossly-distorted half-truths and lies to the media. Therefore, they can always pin liability on the pilots or others who are considered the Untouchables. This appears to be their job.
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responsible for an aircraft (loaded with women and children) which runs out of luck, connected to the insatiable financial greed which led to uncontrolled outsourcing, by way of unbridled contempt for invaluable staff experience?
Good point though.I was generally referring to the awareness at LoCo management (especially Ryan) that the public would be extremely biased towards thinking the crash is directly linked to the frugality of the airline. Even if it's a 20000 hour captain screwing up, joe public is likely to think that "if he flew for Ryanair and not BA, he can't have been very good". Nasty piece of work O'Leary (CEO or Ryanair, for those across the pond not familiar with the beast) has said many times that two hull losses would probably spell the end for the company.
Whether top management can retire rich regardless of the status of the airline is another question. I guess a worrying one!
P
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Permafrost, just to correct slightly your earlier post, Ryanair has been operating now for 20 years, not 10. I do agree with you view on public opinion. Low Cost Carriers will always be viewed differently by the travelling public than the Majors (unjustly in my opinion).
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I think most will find that many countries have tightened up the flying rules just a bit with regard to pilot qualifications...no, not necessarily flight hours, but specific type ratings.
The FAA have now for several years been issuing second-in-command type ratings for when crews operate outside of the USA, in those aircraft that require specific type ratings to be issued, by other countries.
Large US airlines have, of course been doing this for a very long time, for their crews that operate overseas, but those type ratings previously issued were for a full command rating, not just SIC.
The FAA have now for several years been issuing second-in-command type ratings for when crews operate outside of the USA, in those aircraft that require specific type ratings to be issued, by other countries.
Large US airlines have, of course been doing this for a very long time, for their crews that operate overseas, but those type ratings previously issued were for a full command rating, not just SIC.
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Large US airlines have, of course been doing this for a very long time, for their crews that operate overseas, but those type ratings previously issued were for a full command rating, not just SIC.
Northwest has started hiring again here are the published minimums:
Required Qualifications/Flight Time Minimums:
1500 hours Total flight time
1000 hours Multi-engine
500 hours PIC
Airline Transport Pilot Certificate, Multi-Engine or ATP Written
First Class Medical
FCC Restricted Radio permit
Valid Passport with the ability to enter and exit all international destinations, including the ability to travel in and out of the United States
Legal authorization to work in the United States
Willingness to work a flexible schedule (including holidays and weekends)
Proficient reading, writing and speaking in English
Effective interpersonal, customer service, organizational, and leadership skills
Pass pre-employment drug screen, medical exam and background check
High School graduate or equivalent (college degree preferred)
1500 hours Total flight time
1000 hours Multi-engine
500 hours PIC
Airline Transport Pilot Certificate, Multi-Engine or ATP Written
First Class Medical
FCC Restricted Radio permit
Valid Passport with the ability to enter and exit all international destinations, including the ability to travel in and out of the United States
Legal authorization to work in the United States
Willingness to work a flexible schedule (including holidays and weekends)
Proficient reading, writing and speaking in English
Effective interpersonal, customer service, organizational, and leadership skills
Pass pre-employment drug screen, medical exam and background check
High School graduate or equivalent (college degree preferred)
http://flight-nwa.icims.com/nwa_flig...1009&mode=view
It is understood in recent years that successful applicants will usually have far more more than the minimums except in cases of underrepresented demographics.
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If you look up Clark Aviation in Angeles City, Philippines you will see they have already set up this type of training facility you are all looking for and as fireflybob said was once around. This facility has nearly 90 new MPL students and some are over half way through their one year training.
pfd99
pfd99
I am aware of what is happening at Clark. From a training perspective, the Philippines is becoming a disaster area. Only last month 2 students were killed at Plaridel airport (north of Manila). THis and other airfields are becoming know as "no go" areas for those of us who fly in the Philippines as the schools are attempting to churn out hundreds of pilots (mostly for the Indian aviation sector) every month.
http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/storypage.aspx?StoryId=84314
If this is happening at "grass roots" level, what will the future hold for those who travel with the commercial airlines in coming years.
I have witnessed many students who have been "fast tracked" this way in the Philippines and would not want to fly with them as passengers in any aircraft.
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RAT-5,
The focus and priority of 12+ Hours of Long Haul flying (as you put it), is 'management' of the operation rather than a handling/stick & rudder emphasis.
Your assertion that short haul 737/320 flying is more challenging than long haul flying is ill conceived. There are an array of issue's, threats and considerations that need to be constantly assessed and threat management strategies implemented. The knowledge base required is also greater.
A lot can happen, but more importantly, change over a 12 to 14 hour flight. You will realise this if and when you fly long haul someday. Usually, people who say short haul is harder than long haul are those that most wish they could be long haul pilots!
It is true that high density short haul ops will improve handling skills, however, long haul pilots are nowdays considered 'managers' and certainly my management style will not and does not allow my F/O's to hand fly too much of a departure or arrival, unless required due abnormals.
The safest and most efficient way to fly wide body long haul ops is to make FULL use of the AFDS. The same is and should be true in short haul. Regardless of how well one can manipulate the flight controls, there is no substitute for experience, something some 500 hour cadets falsely believe they have plenty of.
Wide body long haul International ops is REAL experience and highly desirable.
The focus and priority of 12+ Hours of Long Haul flying (as you put it), is 'management' of the operation rather than a handling/stick & rudder emphasis.
Your assertion that short haul 737/320 flying is more challenging than long haul flying is ill conceived. There are an array of issue's, threats and considerations that need to be constantly assessed and threat management strategies implemented. The knowledge base required is also greater.
A lot can happen, but more importantly, change over a 12 to 14 hour flight. You will realise this if and when you fly long haul someday. Usually, people who say short haul is harder than long haul are those that most wish they could be long haul pilots!
It is true that high density short haul ops will improve handling skills, however, long haul pilots are nowdays considered 'managers' and certainly my management style will not and does not allow my F/O's to hand fly too much of a departure or arrival, unless required due abnormals.
The safest and most efficient way to fly wide body long haul ops is to make FULL use of the AFDS. The same is and should be true in short haul. Regardless of how well one can manipulate the flight controls, there is no substitute for experience, something some 500 hour cadets falsely believe they have plenty of.
Wide body long haul International ops is REAL experience and highly desirable.
Last edited by 00seven; 26th Jul 2007 at 19:16. Reason: Add text head
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ATPMBA- Get the facts right please.
Who ever wrote the original article claimed that "You need 1500 hrs flight time to co-pilot a commercial jet". Never talked about whats needed to get an ATPL.
Are you telling me that I should call my company up and tell them we have 300+ ileagal FOs flying around our "commercial jets" at the moment?
/CP
Who ever wrote the original article claimed that "You need 1500 hrs flight time to co-pilot a commercial jet". Never talked about whats needed to get an ATPL.
Are you telling me that I should call my company up and tell them we have 300+ ileagal FOs flying around our "commercial jets" at the moment?
/CP
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Nasty piece of work O'Leary (CEO or Ryanair, for those across the pond not familiar with the beast) has said many times that two hull losses would probably spell the end for the company.
EZY and Ryan have been going for 10 years, where are the crashes? You can't say "it's only a matter of time" forever. Of course it'll happen some day, but EVERY ex-BA, SA, VS, etc. old timer I have flown with at EZY says that the safety culture at EZY is remarkable.
Regrettably the standards have shown a very obvious decline in the last year or two and it is the belief of many ryr pilots that a hull loss will happen. When the pilots are of that belief I believe it's legitimate and of enormous concern.
Mach 3
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00Seven,
Warning - thread creep!
The thing is, the first thing you LH pilots dicsuss at the briefing table is who gets the bunk first isn't it?
How many sectors do you fly a month? 5, 6, 10....God forbid, 15?!
We in the SH business, fly 50-60 sectors/month which means we do a LOT more decision making than you guys....
It starts at the aforementioned briefing table.
We make a bunch more fuel decisions than you, we start a bunch more engines than you, we taxi around crowded ramps a bunch more than you, we receive and digest a bunch more clearances than you, we are likely to experience the potential for a lot more runway incursions than you, we operate our engines close to their EGT limits a lot more than you, we are exposed to the potential of an RTO a lot more than you, we fly more SID's/STAR's than you, we are exposed to more potential CFIT than you, more non-precision approaches, we carry more people/day than you....etc etc Need I go on?
You get the idea?
Arguably then, we've got a lot more to manage then, and alot more justification as a result for the use of the AFDS.
Personally I like it that way. I can't think of anything I'd like to do less than sit in an aluminium tube for 10, 15 or 18+ hours at a time. I've done enough of that kind of thing, although of course even in SH, we're in the FD for 10+ hours at a time.
What I find funny is that LH pilots are often reluctant to admit they got into LH flying because it affords them (or perhaps the perception of?) a better life....
I mean, if it didn't, why else would you do it?
Ah, I see....better when at home, but harder at work is it?
Enjoy.
Right, enough willy waving and back to the subject at hand....
Cognizant of the fact that every Ryanair aircraft I hear going by me seems to have an expatriate at the radio, if you take them out of the equation, I don't see much evidence of a shortage here in the UK....
In fact, in Terms and Endearment, they're talking about redundancies on the basis of consolidation in the industry.
Warning - thread creep!
The thing is, the first thing you LH pilots dicsuss at the briefing table is who gets the bunk first isn't it?
How many sectors do you fly a month? 5, 6, 10....God forbid, 15?!
We in the SH business, fly 50-60 sectors/month which means we do a LOT more decision making than you guys....
It starts at the aforementioned briefing table.
We make a bunch more fuel decisions than you, we start a bunch more engines than you, we taxi around crowded ramps a bunch more than you, we receive and digest a bunch more clearances than you, we are likely to experience the potential for a lot more runway incursions than you, we operate our engines close to their EGT limits a lot more than you, we are exposed to the potential of an RTO a lot more than you, we fly more SID's/STAR's than you, we are exposed to more potential CFIT than you, more non-precision approaches, we carry more people/day than you....etc etc Need I go on?
You get the idea?
Arguably then, we've got a lot more to manage then, and alot more justification as a result for the use of the AFDS.
Personally I like it that way. I can't think of anything I'd like to do less than sit in an aluminium tube for 10, 15 or 18+ hours at a time. I've done enough of that kind of thing, although of course even in SH, we're in the FD for 10+ hours at a time.
What I find funny is that LH pilots are often reluctant to admit they got into LH flying because it affords them (or perhaps the perception of?) a better life....
I mean, if it didn't, why else would you do it?
Ah, I see....better when at home, but harder at work is it?
Enjoy.
Right, enough willy waving and back to the subject at hand....
Cognizant of the fact that every Ryanair aircraft I hear going by me seems to have an expatriate at the radio, if you take them out of the equation, I don't see much evidence of a shortage here in the UK....
In fact, in Terms and Endearment, they're talking about redundancies on the basis of consolidation in the industry.
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SR71,
Long Haul wide body international flying has always been prestigious and has a high status level. Short haul narrow body flying......well it's no big deal really.
None of the arguments you present above will ever change this obvious perception, because the advent of the low cost industry has tarnished the image/status of the short haul pilot to a level consistent with public transport bus, train and even truck drivers.
Of course, some low cost pilots have themselves to blame because they project an awful image just by the way they wear (or in some cases), dont wear their uniform. We've all seen these guys on the ramps.
It does not inspire much confidence or respect from our customers, but even worse, it devalues the profession of a short haul pilot, hence the low salaries and poor conditions.
Long Haul wide body international flying has always been prestigious and has a high status level. Short haul narrow body flying......well it's no big deal really.
None of the arguments you present above will ever change this obvious perception, because the advent of the low cost industry has tarnished the image/status of the short haul pilot to a level consistent with public transport bus, train and even truck drivers.
Of course, some low cost pilots have themselves to blame because they project an awful image just by the way they wear (or in some cases), dont wear their uniform. We've all seen these guys on the ramps.
It does not inspire much confidence or respect from our customers, but even worse, it devalues the profession of a short haul pilot, hence the low salaries and poor conditions.
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‘Long Haul wide body international flying has always been prestigious and has a high status level. Short haul narrow body flying......well it's no big deal really.’
Arrogant tripe …. comes with the title I suppose!
Mr. 007 or is it Capt. 007 has a thing about ‘prestige’ (see other posts), can you pass class 1 medical with tunnel vision?
Arrogant tripe …. comes with the title I suppose!
Mr. 007 or is it Capt. 007 has a thing about ‘prestige’ (see other posts), can you pass class 1 medical with tunnel vision?
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From 00seven:
Ahhh, now we get to the truth. One of those LHS nightmares who's slowly eaten alive by his own insecurity. There's a couple of them at my company and every FO shudders when their names appear on the roster.
How's your ulcer?
P
certainly my management style will not and does not allow my F/O's to hand fly too much of a departure or arrival,
How's your ulcer?
P
Last edited by Permafrost_ATPL; 28th Jul 2007 at 16:28.
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Hi YesTam
The problem is not a shortage of pilots at all. It is a shortage of pilots prepared to work for the pay offered.
What do you suggest?
Pilots are unemployable. I don’t sent the builder for training when I contracting him for work. Do you get it?
A CPL pilot with 250 hrs is unemployable. How much money can you make, with a Barron or 210 on your licence and 250 hrs TT? You cannot even pay the access insurance.
How much money can a 1000 hrs pilot ( Scullies daughter excluded) with a 208 expect ? $ 7500 per month?
How much money (if nothing brakes) can a C 208 generate in a month?
How much money can a King Air 90 or 200 generate in a month? - and on ad-hoc charters – like 40 hrs per month if you are lucky ? The income cannot even cover the instalment!
Are you aware that an aircraft is a business unit on its own?
Have you ever calculated possible income, returns on investment, maintenance, unscheduled maintenance, down time, engine, prop and gear provisions, component replacements?
Do you know that there is an upper limit what the market can pay?
Explain to me how you can make money at R 22 – 23 /km on a 1900 based on 40 -60 hrs per month. (This is more or less what the owner gets.)
How much money must go to the crew?
SAA with all the latest (100 ‘s of millions of dollars) toys in the bed are running since day one at a loss (apart from one or two years when the assists were sold and placed in the balance sheet) how many airlines in the USA are under Chapter 11? How many airlines in SA went bust the last 20 years?
The bottom line is - Commercial aviation is a pie in the sky.
TFC
The problem is not a shortage of pilots at all. It is a shortage of pilots prepared to work for the pay offered.
What do you suggest?
Pilots are unemployable. I don’t sent the builder for training when I contracting him for work. Do you get it?
A CPL pilot with 250 hrs is unemployable. How much money can you make, with a Barron or 210 on your licence and 250 hrs TT? You cannot even pay the access insurance.
How much money can a 1000 hrs pilot ( Scullies daughter excluded) with a 208 expect ? $ 7500 per month?
How much money (if nothing brakes) can a C 208 generate in a month?
How much money can a King Air 90 or 200 generate in a month? - and on ad-hoc charters – like 40 hrs per month if you are lucky ? The income cannot even cover the instalment!
Are you aware that an aircraft is a business unit on its own?
Have you ever calculated possible income, returns on investment, maintenance, unscheduled maintenance, down time, engine, prop and gear provisions, component replacements?
Do you know that there is an upper limit what the market can pay?
Explain to me how you can make money at R 22 – 23 /km on a 1900 based on 40 -60 hrs per month. (This is more or less what the owner gets.)
How much money must go to the crew?
SAA with all the latest (100 ‘s of millions of dollars) toys in the bed are running since day one at a loss (apart from one or two years when the assists were sold and placed in the balance sheet) how many airlines in the USA are under Chapter 11? How many airlines in SA went bust the last 20 years?
The bottom line is - Commercial aviation is a pie in the sky.
TFC
Permafrost ATPL: The problem might be multiplied by the number of highly-experienced ground crews who were "outsourced".
According to one of our Check Airmen who was on the airport shuttle this winter, one of our jets had only one (1) wing de-iced, and the de-icing crew believed that they were finished. Luckily the passengers were alert and told a Flight Attendant about the forgotten wing de-icing.
Another Captain was told by a different de-ice crew that a stick/wand (used to check for clear ice on both upper wings) was stuck in the upper wing. How did the wand become stuck? Well...the tail is much higher than the wing, therefore the ground crew believed that the tail was the upper wing. The Captain was also the Senior Check Airman. Good timing! Location, location...
Apparently, the FAA allows these same companies to continue to operate and service jets full of women and children
.
According to one of our Check Airmen who was on the airport shuttle this winter, one of our jets had only one (1) wing de-iced, and the de-icing crew believed that they were finished. Luckily the passengers were alert and told a Flight Attendant about the forgotten wing de-icing.
Another Captain was told by a different de-ice crew that a stick/wand (used to check for clear ice on both upper wings) was stuck in the upper wing. How did the wand become stuck? Well...the tail is much higher than the wing, therefore the ground crew believed that the tail was the upper wing. The Captain was also the Senior Check Airman. Good timing! Location, location...
Apparently, the FAA allows these same companies to continue to operate and service jets full of women and children
.
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00seven
Have you read your post before hitting the send button?? the arrogance / inflated self opinion is a tad alarming! Very glad I dont have to share a cockpit with you, on one of your "long haul" flights. I have spent 5 years widebody airbus & 3 years 747, now working for the dreaded Ryanair and without a doubt, it is far more challenging as a captain in terms of : non precision approaches / cat B & C airports, winter ops, low vis, limited duty periods, and extremely limited operations back up. some days a combination of all of the above is the norm. On average far more forward planning/ thinking is required, and in my humble opinion you can get bitten on the ass a lot sooner. I miss the Acars, ops back up and relaxed nature of the long haul stuff, but have a much better home life, 5 on 4 off fixed roster, (no packing!) The knowledge base required for long haul is not greater as you say, just different , I fly with some very sharp people here, and when I think back to the long haul stuff , most days were a piece of cake. Hardest part was packing the suicase.
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White none please
I am not a user of pprune to make friends.......and yes, one of the many difficult tasks of long haul ops is packing the right garments. Its about the only thing that is correct in your post.
I am not a user of pprune to make friends.......and yes, one of the many difficult tasks of long haul ops is packing the right garments. Its about the only thing that is correct in your post.