Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

TAM A320 crash at Congonhas, Brazil

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

TAM A320 crash at Congonhas, Brazil

Old 26th Jul 2007, 13:19
  #541 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Trindade
Posts: 94
Exclamation

Brazil's defence minister fired

There has been pressure on President Lula to act after the crash

Brazil's president has sacked his defence minister, whose ministry oversees air traffic control, following the country's deadliest air disaster.
Even before the crash, Waldir Pires had faced criticism after nearly a year of periodic travel chaos.
Last week a TAM Airlines jet slammed into a building at Congonhas airport, killing nearly 200 people.
President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva has promised to take all measures needed to prevent further air disasters.
Mr Pires will be replaced by former Supreme Court President, Nelson Jobim, a presidential spokesman said.

Mr Pires's handling of the aviation crisis has been criticised as inefficient.

Air traffic chaos

Since the Tam Airlines crash on 17 July, all flights at Sao Paulo's Congonhas airport, the country's busiest hub, have been diverted to a secondary runway and flights are suspended when there is rainy weather.
Severe delays were still being reported at several Brazilian airports after more than half of all scheduled flights via Congonhas were cancelled on Tuesday.

To try and ease congestion, the government temporarily halted airline ticket sales from the airport.

There has been intense speculation but no confirmation on the cause of the Tam Airlines crash.

Tam Airlines has said that one of the two thrust reversers on the Airbus 320 - which help jets slow down on landing - had been deactivated on the plane during maintenance checks.

But the company insisted that the deactivation was in accordance with proper procedures.
The crash occurred in wet conditions on a recently resurfaced runway that has been criticised as being too short.

Video footage appeared to show the plane travelling along one section of the runway at higher than normal speed, taking only three seconds to cover the same distance the previous plane had done in 11.

Most of the passengers and crew on board the flight were Brazilian.
Hermano Lobo is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2007, 13:25
  #542 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: La Belle Province
Posts: 2,158
1) Is it correct to infer from earlier posts from Dream Land that the AB procedure for applying reverse on a locked out u/s reverser was amended recently (before "don't", now "do")?
Strictly, no, from what I see.

post by DL
78-30 Thrust Reverser
30-01 Thrust Reverser
At Landing:
Note: It is recommended not to select reverse thrust on the affected engine
(and there's been discussion that that was withdrawn later)

from Airbus telex
A- During the flare at thrust reduction select ALL thrust levers to IDLE.
Those aren't inconsistent: one says DON'T select REV, the other says DO go to IDLE.

But it does seem that people are interpreting a negative instruction in a way that's different to the corresponding positive instruction. A reminder just how the semantics of a procedure can be critical.
Mad (Flt) Scientist is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2007, 13:36
  #543 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Argentina
Posts: 50
A'right fellows, from what I've red so far, I must think my companie's MEL is not up to date... The operative prosedure says that "BOTH THRUST REVERSE must be set to MAX" and it gives not restriction whatsoever apart from 55mts increased runway distance on a wet rwy.

To be honest, I have operated with one rev inop, and contrary to what the MEL says, I thought it was much better to leave the afected engine at idle reather than setting both to rev max.
As far as I know, when you select reverse on the affected engine the FADEC commands a higher than normal IDLE icreasing FWD thrust on the affected engine... Therefore, I always thought It'd be better to use only one REV in that case.

With regard to the AB vs B discussion, I think that the fact that the actual thrust delivered at the time of the flare does not match the position of the TLs could lead to "not recognizing on time" the fact that you are only retarding one TL (as silly as it sounds). Whereas on the "moving TLs" You will feel the yawing straight away.

Sorry about my english... hope you get my point.

Bye...
downsouth is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2007, 13:40
  #544 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: You get one guess!
Posts: 18
The nose gear was on the ground all of the way through the grass. You may not see it on some of the press photos as they are taken from an awkward angle. If you sit in an aircraft which lands on 35R and then taxies across 35L to go to the terminal building and you have a window seat on the right hand side, you can see them clearly.

The runway is crowned. You can tell that if you sit on the left hand side of the aircraft crossing 35L at the northern end, as above, and look down the runway. You can also tell from the power requirements to taxi across it.

One engine was at considerably higher power than the other at the time of impact. Please note that I have not said anything about reverse thrust being in or out. Do not imply anything from the power differential and the direction of the thrust being generated. You may not have seen enough photos or the wreckage being lifted out from the building to have noticed this difference.

Just sticking to the facts.

Regards

SBSP.
Our-man-in-CGH is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2007, 15:10
  #545 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Here, there and everywhere
Posts: 192
Errr.. what's a crowned runway?

BF
Broomstick Flier is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2007, 15:14
  #546 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: La Belle Province
Posts: 2,158
centreline higher than the sides, so that water runs off.

Like a crown green bowling green, basically.
Mad (Flt) Scientist is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2007, 15:23
  #547 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
Posts: 3,043
Some useful stuff here on runway 'performance'.

Scroll down for English.

http://www.aecp.pt/docs/epilot/epilot29.pdf
forget is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2007, 15:45
  #548 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,252
DS, I think we can all agree that not commanding reverse on the inop engine avoids putting it into the higher thrust mode of reverse idle and you will thereby stop a bit shorter.

Against that we have to consider the major extra runway required by inadvertently:
  • not idling both TLs
  • selecting reverse on the reverse inop engine instead of the engine with operative reverse.
The choice is between accepting a minor expected degradation or incurring the risk of a surprise serious degradation in decelleration.
RatherBeFlying is online now  
Old 26th Jul 2007, 16:21
  #549 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: France
Posts: 2,316
Question: exactly how does one inhibit (lock out) a defective thrust reverser?
Sorry if this is more of a Tech Log question, but it seems relevant here.

PS: are the reversers hydraulically or pneumatically actuated?

Last edited by ChristiaanJ; 26th Jul 2007 at 16:29. Reason: PS added
ChristiaanJ is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2007, 17:09
  #550 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: You get one guess!
Posts: 18
Centreline higher than the sides, so that water runs off.

Yes, but you also need to consider the crosswind as on some runways, this can cause the water to bank up on one side and run off quickly on the other. Might not be a factor in this case with the wind speed and direction.
Our-man-in-CGH is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2007, 18:11
  #551 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Sao Paulo
Age: 75
Posts: 792
It now seems likely that at least partial contents of the FDR will be released to the congressional committe of inquiry as soon as it's available. Under condition of strict secrecy - which condition has nil chances of being respected.
broadreach is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2007, 18:17
  #552 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 5,330
It now seems likely that at least partial contents of the FDR will be released to the congressional committe of inquiry as soon as it's available. Under condition of strict secrecy - which condition has nil chances of being respected
so when can we expect to see it posted here?
lomapaseo is online now  
Old 26th Jul 2007, 18:19
  #553 (permalink)  
PPRuNe supporter
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 1,679
Question: exactly how does one inhibit (lock out) a defective thrust reverser?
Sorry if this is more of a Tech Log question, but it seems relevant here.
Translating Cowl type reverser's on the V2500, locking them out is accomplished by inserting a bolt into holes on each side of the cowling to keep it from moving. T/R's operate off the hydraulics.
Sorry for the confusion, I previously posted MEL operational procedures from REV 22, here is REV 29
(REV 29) 78-30 THRUST REVERSER
AT TOUCHDOWN REV 1 AND 2..........MAX
Dream Land is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2007, 18:28
  #554 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Sao Paulo
Age: 75
Posts: 792
lomapaseo,
I would think very soon after the first politician spills the beans.
broadreach is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2007, 20:06
  #555 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Brazil
Age: 63
Posts: 7
TR's on the A320 are electrically controlled, hydraulically actuated. To deactivate one reverser, a steel pin is inserted into the linkage and also the electrical conector plug is disconected. Pin is visible during walkaround check.
caiozink is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2007, 20:16
  #556 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Brasilia - Brazil
Posts: 10
Does anyone know WHEN/WHY the MEL procedure changed from "preferable not to select REV on the affected engine" to "select REV MAX on both engines (including affected side)?
Also mentioned already, the Fadec will command increased idle thrust on affected side -- is this to be ignored by pilot?

downsouth has mentioned preference to leaving engine with inop reverse on idle...
leilas23 is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2007, 21:00
  #557 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: France
Posts: 2,316
Originally Posted by Dream Land
Translating Cowl type reversers on the V2500, locking them out is accomplished by inserting a bolt into holes on each side of the cowling to keep it from moving. T/Rs operate off the hydraulics.
Originally Posted by caiozink
TRs on the A320 are electrically controlled, hydraulically actuated. To deactivate one reverser, a steel pin is inserted into the linkage and also the electrical connector plug is disconected. Pin is visible during walkaround check.
Many thanks!
You're confirming neither pilot action nor aberrant computers can deploy a properly locked-out reverser, which was my primary question
ChristiaanJ is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2007, 21:45
  #558 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 67
Flyingnewbie10; seeing that this is your first post, and so as to spare you the wrath of some of the more anal types on PPRuNe; might I suggest that you actually read through at least one or two of the last pages in this thread before asking a question that was discussed a few posts back?

pAnmAn
Panman is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2007, 22:37
  #559 (permalink)  
PJ2
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: BC
Age: 72
Posts: 2,445
flyingnewbie10;

Hm, I think panman is only trying to help sir and I thought the advice worthwhile.

That said, the autothrust "regime" for the Airbus A320/A340 series is best conveyed in TLA or thrust-lever angle, with reference to the 3 detents that the levers can be placed in for automatic functions.

The Autothrust range is from 0 degrees to 25 degrees or "IDLE" to "MAX CLB" (Climb Detent". With the TL's in the CLB detent, the FADEC has full thrust authority depending upon the requirements of the autoflight-autothrust system, which has a number of sub-modes and regimes.

Once moved rearward from the CLB detent (< 25deg), with the autothrust system engaged (and not merely "ARMED"), the physical position of the thrust levers will limit the maximum authority of the FADEC to the thrust setting represented by that thrust lever position. That limitation is shown on the engine EPR or N1 guage (depending upon engine installation) by white circles - AB pilots call them "donuts" usually. In normal ops, the biggest training item (outside of abnormal ops) is to ensure pilots new to the AB "match" the donuts with the actual thrust (N1 or EPR) setting if that thrust setting is below the donuts (thrust levers higher than the present thrust being developed). Otherwise, upon disconnection of the autothrust system, the FADECs will command an immediate increase in power up to the position of the donuts...matching the two makes for a smooth disconnection.

The regime above the thrust lever CLB detent is the "Flex/MCT" detent. In this regime the autothrust is not engaged (even though it may be armed). It is a straight MCT selection for all regimes of flight except takeoff. On takeoff, the detent sets thrust according to the Flex thrust setting as entered in the FMGC during cockpit preparation.

The MCT detent is at 35 degrees TLA and can be used at any time without restriction and is sometimes used to momentarily add thrust mainly on final, should the crew believe that the energy level of the aircraft is "sagging" a bit - Airbus flies the A320 very close to "Vls" also known as 'the hook' due to it's appearance on the PFD, and sometimes a bit of extra speed (3 - 5 kts)makes for comfort.

The TOGA - Takeoff/Go-around detent is at 45 degrees and is the go-around thrust setting. It is also beyond the autothrust regime. It is used mostly for go-arounds as the setting of TOGA thrust also re-strings the FMC approach runway and final routing usually from the CF, for another approach. In defined conditions (windshear, flex temp lower than OAT), the TOGA position is used for takeoff.

The IDLE regime is at 0 degrees. The a/t system is disengaged at 0deg. The reverse regime is < 0deg to minus-20 degrees. It does not have a detent at the end of the regime (full reverse) for obvious reasons.

In the ground-mode, with thrust levers above about 22deg, autobrakes and therefore spoilers are not available. This stated, there are system complexities and historical observations regarding this which are available within this thread which are worth seeking out and reading.

The report of the A320 accident at Taiwan in October 2004 is well worth reading for an explanation of the autothrust system. That report is available at, http://www.asc.gov.tw/acd_files/189-c1contupload.pdf, posted earlier in this thread.
PJ2 is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2007, 00:22
  #560 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 2,561
My friend flies the A320 and when I asked him about landing with one TR locked out he said training never really covers that sort of thing so he didn't know. He said a lot of pilots don't understand some of the automation of the Airbus so even check pilots don't always get it right. Hopefully the DFDR and CVR will tell if changes need to be made. I only flew Boeings so always got what I asked for and nothing else.
bubbers44 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.