The BBC is looking for pilots......
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cropping superfluous words
For the benefit of rainboe:
I am an ex-RAF FJ pilot and I have experienced a mild form of the break-off phenomenon. Not the extreme sitting-out-on-the wing variety but merely the balancing-on-a-pinhead variety. I was at FL400 in a single-seat fighter and I had a sudden feeling that the aircraft could not possibly stay aloft, that it would fall off the edge at any moment. The panic that set in was palpable and did not abate until I had descended many thousands of feet to a much lower level.
I never told anyone and it never recurred despite several more visits to FL400 and above.
The phenomenon was discussed during the RAF pre-FJ Aviation Medicine course which used to be run at North Luffenham when I was in the mob. It's real enough.
I am an ex-RAF FJ pilot and I have experienced a mild form of the break-off phenomenon. Not the extreme sitting-out-on-the wing variety but merely the balancing-on-a-pinhead variety. I was at FL400 in a single-seat fighter and I had a sudden feeling that the aircraft could not possibly stay aloft, that it would fall off the edge at any moment. The panic that set in was palpable and did not abate until I had descended many thousands of feet to a much lower level.
I never told anyone and it never recurred despite several more visits to FL400 and above.
The phenomenon was discussed during the RAF pre-FJ Aviation Medicine course which used to be run at North Luffenham when I was in the mob. It's real enough.
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I have experienced a similar "balancing-on-a-pinhead" feeling that Wingswinger cites. The only difference is that it was in a glider so I'm wondering if canopy shape in relation to pilot position and/or sortie type have anything to do with it?
I wasn't doing much of anything, and had just been mooching around for an hour or so at 2,000', albeit under a big perspex canopy, on a hot sunny day. I.e. the grey matter was barely being exercised.
I can't describe it as anything other than a really weird feeling but I suddenly realised that I didn't feel that I was sat completely within the aircraft. I didn't get as far as sitting on the wing looking in but I was certainly part way there
Like Wingswinger the panic was palpable for a few minutes and I landed soon after. Ditto, I didn't mention it to anyone at the time. Perhaps I should have done so?
My 2p worth for today.
I wasn't doing much of anything, and had just been mooching around for an hour or so at 2,000', albeit under a big perspex canopy, on a hot sunny day. I.e. the grey matter was barely being exercised.
I can't describe it as anything other than a really weird feeling but I suddenly realised that I didn't feel that I was sat completely within the aircraft. I didn't get as far as sitting on the wing looking in but I was certainly part way there
Like Wingswinger the panic was palpable for a few minutes and I landed soon after. Ditto, I didn't mention it to anyone at the time. Perhaps I should have done so?
My 2p worth for today.
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This guy form the BBC has probably given up on 'break out', there's a whole new category of aviation professionals who can take a simple spatial awareness question and develop it into a multi thread argument unrelated to the thread and wander all over the place
It's one thing to question the intentions of a journalist looking for flight crew info, it's another to supply open source ramblings that any competent flight psych can use to come to conclusions about cognitive processes and thought cycles and all of that mumbo jumbo.
It's no good to say 'journo alert' when the subsequent ramblings (open source) provide enough evidence to fill a paper on aviation open discussion
Just a thought, but worth taking onboard - if you recall from the flight crew screening tests, the field psychs take all of your notes and scribblings.
there's more info in the squiggles and boxes than they need to know.
rep ipso liquiter
It's one thing to question the intentions of a journalist looking for flight crew info, it's another to supply open source ramblings that any competent flight psych can use to come to conclusions about cognitive processes and thought cycles and all of that mumbo jumbo.
It's no good to say 'journo alert' when the subsequent ramblings (open source) provide enough evidence to fill a paper on aviation open discussion
Just a thought, but worth taking onboard - if you recall from the flight crew screening tests, the field psychs take all of your notes and scribblings.
there's more info in the squiggles and boxes than they need to know.
rep ipso liquiter
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I once flew with a Captain that suffered from break-out syndrome.
The symptoms were profusely sweating and uncontrollable hand shaking.
It occurred when he had to break out his wallet to pay for a large round of beers
The man has never been the same since the incident.
Does this qualify me for my 15 minutes of fame on the Beed
The symptoms were profusely sweating and uncontrollable hand shaking.
It occurred when he had to break out his wallet to pay for a large round of beers
The man has never been the same since the incident.
Does this qualify me for my 15 minutes of fame on the Beed
I spent a couple of weeks with 30 Sqn in 1986, whilst on a UAS, and I distinctly remember being told about a Captain who'd be grounded as a result of this phenomenon. In fact it was one of the guys who'd been in the BBC Fighter Pilot series who went Hercs (was it Martin Oxborough? No slur intended if not.)
The exact description was that this individual kept having episodes where he thought he was outside the a/c looking in. It was the first time I'd heard of it, and obviously made an impression if I can still recall being told about it 21 years later!
The exact description was that this individual kept having episodes where he thought he was outside the a/c looking in. It was the first time I'd heard of it, and obviously made an impression if I can still recall being told about it 21 years later!
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To be transparent, I am not a professional pilot, earn my crust working on achieving behavioural change in the workplace (business environment.)
This sounds to me to be something less of "spiritual" and more a case of the amazing capability of the human brain.
Teaching people to visualise "meta positions", e.g. putting your self in someone else's position and assessing what you are doing during a difficult discussion, is a fairly well known technique used by some coaches, to raise self awareness.
It is not a technique that I use when leading behavioural workshops, but some of my participants have told me that they have experienced powerful "out of body" experiences when trying this technique in different sessions and break off syndrome, as described here, sounds similar to the way they explained their experiences - albiet it didn't involve sitting on a wing
I imagine it would be quite disconcerting and disorientating if it happened in the context of flying a single seat aircraft at altitude.
This sounds to me to be something less of "spiritual" and more a case of the amazing capability of the human brain.
Teaching people to visualise "meta positions", e.g. putting your self in someone else's position and assessing what you are doing during a difficult discussion, is a fairly well known technique used by some coaches, to raise self awareness.
It is not a technique that I use when leading behavioural workshops, but some of my participants have told me that they have experienced powerful "out of body" experiences when trying this technique in different sessions and break off syndrome, as described here, sounds similar to the way they explained their experiences - albiet it didn't involve sitting on a wing
I imagine it would be quite disconcerting and disorientating if it happened in the context of flying a single seat aircraft at altitude.
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break off
During the later seventies, a Marham-based Canberra pilot (can't now remember whether on 100 or the OCU), suffered from just this form of disorientation. He'd just got into the cruise for an overseas weekend, so had something to lose!
His navigator had to work on a continuous spoken commentary/advice to get him down rather than face banging out!
He was treated at IAM Farnborough. This was a known problem, and the treatment culminated, for those capable of recovery, of flights in a Chipmunk until the sufferer and the specialists believed that a cure had been achieved.
His navigator had to work on a continuous spoken commentary/advice to get him down rather than face banging out!
He was treated at IAM Farnborough. This was a known problem, and the treatment culminated, for those capable of recovery, of flights in a Chipmunk until the sufferer and the specialists believed that a cure had been achieved.
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I have experienced a similar "balancing-on-a-pinhead" feeling that Wingswinger cites. The only difference is that it was in a glider so I'm wondering if canopy shape in relation to pilot position and/or sortie type have anything to do with it?
I flew gliders for a few years and felt this odd out of body like experience on a few occasions. It only lasted a few seconds and was quite enjoyable usually. To me it felt like I was out in front of the plane. Never noticed it when I was busy. Once or twice the sensation was uncomfortable - a bit like discovering everything has gone quiet because you are close to stalling.
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Last edited by Pollards; 22nd Jun 2007 at 10:13. Reason: Digital ineptitude
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BBC
Dear All
As a guest on your forum I would like to thank you for all your comments and responses. For some reason I cannot send private messages, so to all those who have posted referring to an experience of break-off, please email me. I would really love to talk to you, even if you are not interested in contributing to our film. An informal chat about any aspects of this phenomenon would still be incredibly helpful.
To those of you who have chosen to email me with your comments about the state of factual programming on the BBC, thank you also. I have read them with great interest, I would ask however, that you refrain from emailing me directly, unless it is regarding my initial post. Otherwise I may be forced to reply with a stinging critique of the last flight I took......
Regards
James
As a guest on your forum I would like to thank you for all your comments and responses. For some reason I cannot send private messages, so to all those who have posted referring to an experience of break-off, please email me. I would really love to talk to you, even if you are not interested in contributing to our film. An informal chat about any aspects of this phenomenon would still be incredibly helpful.
To those of you who have chosen to email me with your comments about the state of factual programming on the BBC, thank you also. I have read them with great interest, I would ask however, that you refrain from emailing me directly, unless it is regarding my initial post. Otherwise I may be forced to reply with a stinging critique of the last flight I took......
Regards
James
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Perhaps that is the phenomenon that inspired Roald Dahl to write:
Flying a single seater for hours at altitude, as the PRUs did, was reputed to send people slightly batty. I know that FAA types were often away with the Faireys but that was simply their aeroplane; boom, boom!
This is the tale of the Gremlins
As told by the PRU
At Benson and Wick and St Eval-
And believe me, you slobs, it's true.
When you're seven miles up in the heavens,
(That's a hell of a lonely spot)
And it's fifty degrees below zero,
Which isn't exactly hot.
When you're frozen blue like your Spitfire,
And your scared a Mosquito pink.
When you're thousands of miles from nowhere,
And there's nothing below but the drink.
It's then that you'll see the Gremlins,
Green and gamboge and gold,
Male and female and neuter,
Gremlins both young and old.
It's no good trying to dodge them,
The lessons you learnt on the Link
Won't help you evade a Gremlin,
Though you boost and you dive and you jink.
White one's will wiggle your wing tips,
Male one's will muddle your maps,
Green one's will guzzle your glycol,
Females will flutter your flaps.
Pink one's will perch on your perspex,
And dance pirouettes on your prop,
There's a spherical middle-aged Gremlin,
Who'll spin on your stick like a top.
They'll freeze up your camera shutters,
They'll bite through your aileron wires,
They'll bend and they'll break and they'll batter,
They'll insert toasting forks into your tyres.
And that is the tale of the Gremlins,
As told by the PRU,
(P)retty (R)uddy (U)nlikely to many,
But a fact, none the less, to the few.
As told by the PRU
At Benson and Wick and St Eval-
And believe me, you slobs, it's true.
When you're seven miles up in the heavens,
(That's a hell of a lonely spot)
And it's fifty degrees below zero,
Which isn't exactly hot.
When you're frozen blue like your Spitfire,
And your scared a Mosquito pink.
When you're thousands of miles from nowhere,
And there's nothing below but the drink.
It's then that you'll see the Gremlins,
Green and gamboge and gold,
Male and female and neuter,
Gremlins both young and old.
It's no good trying to dodge them,
The lessons you learnt on the Link
Won't help you evade a Gremlin,
Though you boost and you dive and you jink.
White one's will wiggle your wing tips,
Male one's will muddle your maps,
Green one's will guzzle your glycol,
Females will flutter your flaps.
Pink one's will perch on your perspex,
And dance pirouettes on your prop,
There's a spherical middle-aged Gremlin,
Who'll spin on your stick like a top.
They'll freeze up your camera shutters,
They'll bite through your aileron wires,
They'll bend and they'll break and they'll batter,
They'll insert toasting forks into your tyres.
And that is the tale of the Gremlins,
As told by the PRU,
(P)retty (R)uddy (U)nlikely to many,
But a fact, none the less, to the few.
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I've never experienced break-off while flying- I remember the Air Clues article, and a subsequent visitor from the IAM talked about it briefly. However, I think I have experienced something similar while driving. I was driving a van (much larger windscreen than the cars I was used to) on a very familiar route, and I slowly became aware of the feeling that the van was on a very slippery surface, and could lose traction at any moment from the slightest movement of the steering wheel. At the same time, although there was no change in the visual image in front of me, I had the bizarre feeling that I was sitting a long way back from the controls.
The "slippery surface" impression was pure nonsense- this was a bright summer day, in a well-maintained vehicle with good tyres. There was no hallucinatory element, just this odd sensation of detachment. At the time I just treated it as a reminder to take what I was doing seriously, however routine it might have become.
The "slippery surface" impression was pure nonsense- this was a bright summer day, in a well-maintained vehicle with good tyres. There was no hallucinatory element, just this odd sensation of detachment. At the time I just treated it as a reminder to take what I was doing seriously, however routine it might have become.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
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OK, time to sort this one out. What is mostly the common factor? Boredom and isolation. Couple that with an artificial breathing environment where maybe one isn't getting enough O2 through shallow breathing for some reason (relaxation, or not enough forced breathing), and very mild hypoxia along with extreme boredom inducing a relaxed semi-sleep state. It don't go no deeper or mysterious than that! I hope nobody is going for the spiritual side! I think it doesn't occur commonly in driving because there is still too much visual and aural stimulation as well as manipulation, but sitting isolated doing nothing up there....maybe some people are susceptible. Sorted...in half a dozen lines, so how are we going to make up 50 minutes documentary asking pilots to describe their hypoxic/bored dreams?
aka Capt PPRuNe
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Rainboe, no one but you has mentioned the "spiritual element". You bring it up for the first time in post #18. You then go an mention "spiritual" again in posts #21, #30 and #32.
Only in post #48 does 'Final 3 Greens' mention "This sounds to me to be something less of "spiritual" and more a case of the amazing capability of the human brain." which in essence agrees with you that it is nothing to do with anything "spiritual" and then you bring up the "spiritual" issue in post #57.
That's four times you bring up any "spiritual" question before anyone else even mentions it, and then in agreement, and then you mention "spiritual" again! So, by my calculations, you have mentioned "spiritual" 5 times out the 6 references to it.
Methinks, he who doth protest too much... and all that!
PS. It's another fairly quiet news day... as you can probably tell!
Only in post #48 does 'Final 3 Greens' mention "This sounds to me to be something less of "spiritual" and more a case of the amazing capability of the human brain." which in essence agrees with you that it is nothing to do with anything "spiritual" and then you bring up the "spiritual" issue in post #57.
That's four times you bring up any "spiritual" question before anyone else even mentions it, and then in agreement, and then you mention "spiritual" again! So, by my calculations, you have mentioned "spiritual" 5 times out the 6 references to it.
Methinks, he who doth protest too much... and all that!
PS. It's another fairly quiet news day... as you can probably tell!
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
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OK no more 'spiritual', but I don't see the potential for a documentary when it is essentially nothing more than mild hypoxia-induced hallucinations. Unless there is a sensational element to this, I don't think it's going to keep the audience from the pub.
I await with suspicious interest what they're going to make from this!
I await with suspicious interest what they're going to make from this!
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At the risk of dragging this out and because the first NZ- Sth Afraica tri nations test is about to start.
'...but I don't see the potential for a documentary when it is essentially nothing more than mild hypoxia-induced hallucinations....'
That's just a supposition, there are rotary wing pilots in the thread with similar behavioral experiences not in line with oxygen deprivation (partial) or any induced effects related to high altitude/high speed flight.
what's interesting about this phenomenon is:
1. All exhibit the same clinical symptoms
2. All have a similar spatial environment at the onset of the so called brake out syndrome
3. The majority of cases involve single seat, high performance aircraft with single seat crew on long duration missions
4. The majority of symptoms appear to be transitory, i.e. they are experienced cognitively/perceptually and then the subject reverts to a normal awareness state; this factor alone rules out hypoxia as a lone cause.
...the games started - come on AB's. You poms want to take a look - you might learn something
'...but I don't see the potential for a documentary when it is essentially nothing more than mild hypoxia-induced hallucinations....'
That's just a supposition, there are rotary wing pilots in the thread with similar behavioral experiences not in line with oxygen deprivation (partial) or any induced effects related to high altitude/high speed flight.
what's interesting about this phenomenon is:
1. All exhibit the same clinical symptoms
2. All have a similar spatial environment at the onset of the so called brake out syndrome
3. The majority of cases involve single seat, high performance aircraft with single seat crew on long duration missions
4. The majority of symptoms appear to be transitory, i.e. they are experienced cognitively/perceptually and then the subject reverts to a normal awareness state; this factor alone rules out hypoxia as a lone cause.
...the games started - come on AB's. You poms want to take a look - you might learn something
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Somewhere, somehow, you keep missing a point that many people have tried explaining.
"Firstly, the film will not be about break-off. The film is about the affects of sensory deprivation, the break-off syndrome would just be a small segment, an example of when sensory deprivation can affect people."
How about this for an option, when the bit about break-off comes on tv, switch over to another channel. Or perhaps don't watch at all....?
From my view it would seem that you are unaware what Sensory Deprivation means, hence why you keep getting confused. Here's a link to Wikipedia
"Firstly, the film will not be about break-off. The film is about the affects of sensory deprivation, the break-off syndrome would just be a small segment, an example of when sensory deprivation can affect people."
How about this for an option, when the bit about break-off comes on tv, switch over to another channel. Or perhaps don't watch at all....?
From my view it would seem that you are unaware what Sensory Deprivation means, hence why you keep getting confused. Here's a link to Wikipedia
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I see the point of the documentary. In fact it sounds fascinating. I am very also very interested in the kind of phenomenons and effects that pilots are subjected too, but which seem to have significant links in everyday life (or at least to non-aviation scenarios), but for which there is little awareness or consideration given.
