The BBC is looking for pilots......
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Rainboe - You're obviously an intelligent chap, so why waste time having a rant about a programme you're saying you're not going to watch?
If a RAF shrink is going to be interviewed about this phenomenon then there maybe something to it. Of course he may just say 'It's all crap." But we don't know yet.
The OP has nailed his colours to the mast, so let him be.
If a RAF shrink is going to be interviewed about this phenomenon then there maybe something to it. Of course he may just say 'It's all crap." But we don't know yet.
The OP has nailed his colours to the mast, so let him be.
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Wing walking or something similar at high altitude, along with a compelling urge to get into the weedosphere - been there, done that and didn't enjoy the experience.
hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show=clanak_download&id_clanak_jezik=1476 -
hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show=clanak_download&id_clanak_jezik=1476 -
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BBC Horizon
Dear All
Thank you for your varied and interesting comments. It would seem to me that this topic certainly does need some investigating, since none of you can agree on whether it actually exists!
Firstly, the film will not be about break-off. The film is about the affects of sensory deprivation, the break-off syndrome would just be a small segment, an example of when sensory deprivation can affect people.
The RAF are happy for us to film their psychologist who lectures to new pilots about break-off and it's affects. We just cannot locate a pilot who will talk about a first hand experience. This is a combination of the syndrome being very rare, and pilots being a rather macho bunch.......
I had a conversation with a retired Wing Commander who had experienced break-off whilst flying solo at night. Unfortunately he is not based in the UK and therefore we cannot film him (thanks Mr Blair!). One of the senior aviation medicine professionals in the country and a leading Psychologist from UCL have both independently told me about break off. I have done my research, and the syndrome does exist. It may be mild, it may be benign, but it is still fascinating.
If anyone would has had an experience of break-off, please get in touch. If you would like to discuss Horizon's place in factual programming, and how we have to broaden our appeal to justify our prime position on BBC2, then please visit the BBC science website. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbsn/
Kind Regards
James
Thank you for your varied and interesting comments. It would seem to me that this topic certainly does need some investigating, since none of you can agree on whether it actually exists!
Firstly, the film will not be about break-off. The film is about the affects of sensory deprivation, the break-off syndrome would just be a small segment, an example of when sensory deprivation can affect people.
The RAF are happy for us to film their psychologist who lectures to new pilots about break-off and it's affects. We just cannot locate a pilot who will talk about a first hand experience. This is a combination of the syndrome being very rare, and pilots being a rather macho bunch.......
I had a conversation with a retired Wing Commander who had experienced break-off whilst flying solo at night. Unfortunately he is not based in the UK and therefore we cannot film him (thanks Mr Blair!). One of the senior aviation medicine professionals in the country and a leading Psychologist from UCL have both independently told me about break off. I have done my research, and the syndrome does exist. It may be mild, it may be benign, but it is still fascinating.
If anyone would has had an experience of break-off, please get in touch. If you would like to discuss Horizon's place in factual programming, and how we have to broaden our appeal to justify our prime position on BBC2, then please visit the BBC science website. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbsn/
Kind Regards
James
Originally Posted by Rainboe
...even highly experienced aviators have never heard of this...
I read this in 1981...
Originally Posted by "Fighter Pilot", by Colin Strong and Duff Hart-Davis, BBC Books 1981, ISBN 0 563 17971 6
There is one particularly disturbing form of disorientation which can set in at very high altitude: the pilot is flying alone, without much to do and growing a bit bored, when he suddenly visualises himself from outside the aeroplane. He thinks he is outside, sitting on the wing, and looking at himself in the cockpit - a most unnerving phenomenon.
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BBC Horizon
Hello Blimey, if you would be willing to talk to me about it than please email me at [email protected]
Kind Regards
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Rainboe , did you get out of bed the wrong side yesterday and this morning? First, read the top line of the original post: the BBC is making a programme about sensory deprivation of which this phenomenon may be just one example. It isn't a programme about "break off". Before belittling a programme yet to be made, note that it does have an academic input- University of Surrey Dept. of Psychology.
I'm not impressed with your random sample of 1 (best mate who used to fly Lightnings) who never mentioned break off. There are number of problems with that unscientific attitude. Are you sure you remember everything your mate has ever said to you down the years? Does he tell you everything that has ever happened to him? Is he the only fast jet pilot whose experience counts or do you think that maybe others you are not personally acquainted with who may have something different to say?
Conflict of interest: my profession (clinical radiology- x-rays and scans etc) was royally shafted by an shoddy Horizon claiming we were giving everyone cancer!
I'm not impressed with your random sample of 1 (best mate who used to fly Lightnings) who never mentioned break off. There are number of problems with that unscientific attitude. Are you sure you remember everything your mate has ever said to you down the years? Does he tell you everything that has ever happened to him? Is he the only fast jet pilot whose experience counts or do you think that maybe others you are not personally acquainted with who may have something different to say?
Conflict of interest: my profession (clinical radiology- x-rays and scans etc) was royally shafted by an shoddy Horizon claiming we were giving everyone cancer!
I've watched as many Horizon documentaries as I can and have always found them to be absolutely excellent.
I wish I could contribute to this one, but unfortunately I can't.
Best of luck, Mr BBCH.
(And please release them all on DVD as soon as possible, please!)
I wish I could contribute to this one, but unfortunately I can't.
Best of luck, Mr BBCH.
(And please release them all on DVD as soon as possible, please!)
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Well I still don't understand. Could someone explain? What is worthy of a documentary? The spiritual side of apparent imagined body disconnection? The cause? Boredom? Slight hypoxia? What will they try and make the slant? 'Deadly new danger facing high altitude pilots (with wrappy round windshields)'? 'Spiritual pilots psyches touching face of God at 50,000'? A 50 minute docu-dose of mind/body disconnection? What is it attracting documentary makers to this.... a desire to ensure pilots have good O2 systems, or attracting audiences to what, exactly? Are we to be treated to a documentary of pilots describing their virtual drunken hypoxic dreams? I can't wait! Maybe it upsets me because I have to pay the BBC far too much licence money for the pleasure of having a TV when they serve up stuff like this. Sorry if it offends them, but this offends me for that reason!
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Rainboe, you're still looking at this simply from a pilot's point of view. This isn't just about break out, its about sensory deprivation. I know little about this subject but I'm sure it could affect not just pilots. What about the articulated lorry driver in the lane next to you on the motorway who isbored stiff and lost concentration? There's also a more sinister strand: what about dubious interrogation methods? Don't the special forces and other military have to go through some sort of training to give them an idea about what to expect?
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Maybe you're right, but if it comes out as sensational spiritual stuff, I really will start creating about that damn licence fee when I never watch the BBC and their biased current affairs!
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Hi all
Just to give some proof of occurrence to the break away side of the phenomenon, our instruments instructor gave us a dit about exactly this happening to a VC10 captain he was flying with while he was still in the mob. I was in fact quite surprised to read this thread because he and the rest of his crew put it down as the guy having gone nuts and I believe, so the story goes, that they took him out back and tied him up for the rest of the flight once he'd turned around to his F/O and told him how interesting it was so see himself flying the aeroplane whilst sitting on the wing. Seems that if numerous people have had this happen, maybe it does exist!
As to writing it off as simply being mild hypoxia, to be honest I would like to know that such a worrying phenomenon is being researched. If it is Hypoxia, then that's grand and we can do something about it - but what if it isn't? The effects of extreme boredom are, let's face it, more relevant to modern long haul jetliner pilots than anyone else. Single pilot fighters wouldn't be so immediately concerning, when you have a 767 full of people, with the degree of automation on today's flight deck, maybe the responsible thing to do is to find out what causes this and to try and give pilots a remedy for it! Be that oxygen, a crossword or a slap around the face!
Anyone else agree?
cw
Just to give some proof of occurrence to the break away side of the phenomenon, our instruments instructor gave us a dit about exactly this happening to a VC10 captain he was flying with while he was still in the mob. I was in fact quite surprised to read this thread because he and the rest of his crew put it down as the guy having gone nuts and I believe, so the story goes, that they took him out back and tied him up for the rest of the flight once he'd turned around to his F/O and told him how interesting it was so see himself flying the aeroplane whilst sitting on the wing. Seems that if numerous people have had this happen, maybe it does exist!
As to writing it off as simply being mild hypoxia, to be honest I would like to know that such a worrying phenomenon is being researched. If it is Hypoxia, then that's grand and we can do something about it - but what if it isn't? The effects of extreme boredom are, let's face it, more relevant to modern long haul jetliner pilots than anyone else. Single pilot fighters wouldn't be so immediately concerning, when you have a 767 full of people, with the degree of automation on today's flight deck, maybe the responsible thing to do is to find out what causes this and to try and give pilots a remedy for it! Be that oxygen, a crossword or a slap around the face!
Anyone else agree?
cw
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I haven't heard of it happening in an airline with 3500 pilots over 35 years. Or through BALPA at all. In the odd isolated cases you bring up, I would suggest perhaps psycological/shortness of breath factors come into play. Maybe some people can't get enough air, or they are hyperventilating. However I remain sceptical.
sensory deprivation
As usual many feel it cannot happen to him.... hence, if it has happened to somebody else that guy must be the next step to the loony bin.
How do you educate guys who think they know it all....?
How do you educate guys who think they know it all....?
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each involving 3 volunteers who will undergo various states of sensory deprivation. It will be filmed in the nuclear bunker at RAF Bentley Priory in North London
Thinks - how DEEP is that bunker......................
For Horizon - I heard a few stories about 'sitting outside' years ago in the RAF - I think the Vampire may have produced a few examples?
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I once went out with a contortionist but she soon broke it off - does this count? 
Seriously, though, I have heard of it. I believe it's where you think you are watching yourself fly the aircraft from a different location, such as on the wing, looking in at yourself.
Seriously, though, I have heard of it. I believe it's where you think you are watching yourself fly the aircraft from a different location, such as on the wing, looking in at yourself.
I remember reading a long article about this in the RAF flight safety publication "Air Clues". This would have been in the late 80s and it was written by a Jaguar pilot who had suffered from it over a period of time to such an extent he'd been to the medics and got himself grounded. Think he got back to flying after sessions with the psychologists at Farnborough. The RAF may have got the back copies or someone on the Mil forum might remember more details.
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perhaps break out is caused by slight exposure to rainboe? those overexposed to RAINBOE lose too much brain power to look at something non standard.
And Lightnings were pretty short range weren't they? perhaps one has to be up longer than a quick intercept mission (though this plane was quite amazing...said to be able to intercept the U2 among other high alt planes)
I think if RAINBOE got loose in my cockpit, it would be tempting to imagine myself out on the wing. ;-)
And Lightnings were pretty short range weren't they? perhaps one has to be up longer than a quick intercept mission (though this plane was quite amazing...said to be able to intercept the U2 among other high alt planes)
I think if RAINBOE got loose in my cockpit, it would be tempting to imagine myself out on the wing. ;-)
Last edited by bomarc; 20th Jun 2007 at 20:36.