Reroute plane without telling passengers - go to jail!
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the crew acted in good faith, in very difficult circumstances,( long delay & double aircraft change including pax & bags transfer from one aircraft to another).
they were told by their operations an extension was granted & could depart.
so they asked & received a start up & enroute clearance for ... cag.(can you receive a clearance for a place that is closed?)
the passengers were extremely nervous & some on the edge of unruling pax.
the fraud theory is a pure invention of the judge, as the crew was more busy trying to solve all the problems that befell them & were lightyears away from thinking of aggravated fraud practices.
seems to me that for the italian justice it is easier to lock up airline staff, aircrew & atc controllers(linate md 80 collision), than to put the real mafiosi ( banco ambrosiano etc.) behind bars. if this is " aggravated fraud", what than to think about the swissair boys? oh, yes, they were acquitted isn' t it & with substantial bonusses as a gift. ok last remark is off topic.
they were told by their operations an extension was granted & could depart.
so they asked & received a start up & enroute clearance for ... cag.(can you receive a clearance for a place that is closed?)
the passengers were extremely nervous & some on the edge of unruling pax.
the fraud theory is a pure invention of the judge, as the crew was more busy trying to solve all the problems that befell them & were lightyears away from thinking of aggravated fraud practices.
seems to me that for the italian justice it is easier to lock up airline staff, aircrew & atc controllers(linate md 80 collision), than to put the real mafiosi ( banco ambrosiano etc.) behind bars. if this is " aggravated fraud", what than to think about the swissair boys? oh, yes, they were acquitted isn' t it & with substantial bonusses as a gift. ok last remark is off topic.
Give them a fine, or make them pay some compensation, but lock them up! Utterly ridiculous!
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cag diversion
what is equally disturbing & possibly detrimental to flight safety is the continuing trend for the justice departements to criminalise more & more whatever touches aviation. first it was aircraft accidents, e.g. the md80 collision in linate where atc controllers were given heavy real imprisonment sentences. the definition of "criminal" is intentional & premeditated behaviour to do harm. it is difficult to believe that atc controllers willfully crashed these two planes into each other. putting controllers behind bars didn`t solve the problem in linate as same accident in same conditions could happen again.
then one of the last terrible accidents was the brazil collision, where the us pilots are send to a criminal court even before the crash investigation is completed, in total breach of icao, annex13. but here one could say:" oh, yes, but brazil is a third world country"(false argument in my view).
and now even operational incidents (a simple airborne diversion) is criminalized.
then one of the last terrible accidents was the brazil collision, where the us pilots are send to a criminal court even before the crash investigation is completed, in total breach of icao, annex13. but here one could say:" oh, yes, but brazil is a third world country"(false argument in my view).
and now even operational incidents (a simple airborne diversion) is criminalized.
Last edited by blackmail; 11th Jun 2007 at 08:27.
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Italy was a 1st world country, then became a 2nd world country. ( you will have look up the official definitions)
"Try getting off an airplane once it's airborne"
We were held for 7 hours on the ground, on board a 767 in Calcutta in April, (Tom 2171, earlier post.)
Is that constituted as imprisonment, kidknap, or held againt our will?
BR.
"Try getting off an airplane once it's airborne"
We were held for 7 hours on the ground, on board a 767 in Calcutta in April, (Tom 2171, earlier post.)
Is that constituted as imprisonment, kidknap, or held againt our will?
BR.
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There is some seriously flawed logic in this ruling.
I've said I don't think fraud was committed in this case.
Furthermore, there are two sides to a contract of carriage for SLF. It's all well to say that the airline must do this, or must do that, but there is also an obligation on the SLF to subject themselves to certain conditions, while the airline endeavours to fulfill its side of the bargain. Thus, words like "kidnap" and "imprisonment" are totally inappropriate. Basically, we have to sit in the lounge, the metal tube, or the substitute bus for that matter, while they get on with it.
There may be a case for compensation if the conditions are too onerous, but to convict in a court of law for such supposed "crimes" is wrong.
I've said I don't think fraud was committed in this case.
Furthermore, there are two sides to a contract of carriage for SLF. It's all well to say that the airline must do this, or must do that, but there is also an obligation on the SLF to subject themselves to certain conditions, while the airline endeavours to fulfill its side of the bargain. Thus, words like "kidnap" and "imprisonment" are totally inappropriate. Basically, we have to sit in the lounge, the metal tube, or the substitute bus for that matter, while they get on with it.
There may be a case for compensation if the conditions are too onerous, but to convict in a court of law for such supposed "crimes" is wrong.
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Well they were found guilty of agrivated fraud so perhaps there is more to this story than meets the eye. It would be interesting to read the reasons the court gave.
The EEC law does appear to give passengers the right to cancel and not fly if a delay is excessive.
I was thinking of a similar situation...
Lets say you call up and book your car into the garage for a service the following week. The garage tells you on the phone that it should take three hours. Next week arrives and you deliver the car to the garage - but the garage doesn't tell you that the parts have just gone out of stock and that it will take a week to get them. When you call to colect the car later you are told you can't have it back as the parts haven't arrived and the car is in bits. You are without a car for a week. Had you known about the parts problem you could have delayed the service or gone to another garage just as some people might have choosen not to fly. Fraud or not? I guess that depends if they deliberatly decided not to tell you about the parts problem knowing you might have gone elsewhere.
The EEC law does appear to give passengers the right to cancel and not fly if a delay is excessive.
I was thinking of a similar situation...
Lets say you call up and book your car into the garage for a service the following week. The garage tells you on the phone that it should take three hours. Next week arrives and you deliver the car to the garage - but the garage doesn't tell you that the parts have just gone out of stock and that it will take a week to get them. When you call to colect the car later you are told you can't have it back as the parts haven't arrived and the car is in bits. You are without a car for a week. Had you known about the parts problem you could have delayed the service or gone to another garage just as some people might have choosen not to fly. Fraud or not? I guess that depends if they deliberatly decided not to tell you about the parts problem knowing you might have gone elsewhere.
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Just curious, as with this and other threads, comparisons are often made to other industries.
My wife bought a train ticket to a town in S. Belgium. She needed to change trains in central Brussels. She bought the ticket having been told when and where to change trains, and how long she would have etc. i.e. a timetable.
Approaching Brussels she was informed that due to the late running of the trip, and the need for the train to return to XYZ on time, the train would stop short of central Brussels. She then had to make her own way to the change-over station. As there were no 'handling agents' or 'crew' to help, inform & make arrangements, you just get on with it. To find someone to complain to would achieve nothing and only delay the onward journey.
In UK it is generally the case that if trains do not make it to their planned destination, buses are provided for the onward portion. Does anyone throw there hands up in shock horror at this? Or is the Dunkirk spirit alive and well on the trains.
Digressing slightly; what is the case if a change of schedule, be it time or routing, causes you to miss an onward connection? This would most likely involve quite some cost to the pax.
My wife bought a train ticket to a town in S. Belgium. She needed to change trains in central Brussels. She bought the ticket having been told when and where to change trains, and how long she would have etc. i.e. a timetable.
Approaching Brussels she was informed that due to the late running of the trip, and the need for the train to return to XYZ on time, the train would stop short of central Brussels. She then had to make her own way to the change-over station. As there were no 'handling agents' or 'crew' to help, inform & make arrangements, you just get on with it. To find someone to complain to would achieve nothing and only delay the onward journey.
In UK it is generally the case that if trains do not make it to their planned destination, buses are provided for the onward portion. Does anyone throw there hands up in shock horror at this? Or is the Dunkirk spirit alive and well on the trains.
Digressing slightly; what is the case if a change of schedule, be it time or routing, causes you to miss an onward connection? This would most likely involve quite some cost to the pax.
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Generally if the UK train companies know that part of the route will be replaced by bus they tell you. They put up posters at stations and it's broadcast on the TV travel reports etc. They don't usually wait until you are onbord the train half way there.
Train companies and airlines designate trains as "connecting" or "non-connecting". This generally means they wait for earlier trains/planes or not. If the train/plane isn't designated as a connecting service there is usually no compensation either if the connection is missed. I believe many of the low cost airlines don't designate any flights as "connecting" and give no compensation for missed connections. I believe your contract with them is on a per flight basis not end to end so buyer beware.
Train companies and airlines designate trains as "connecting" or "non-connecting". This generally means they wait for earlier trains/planes or not. If the train/plane isn't designated as a connecting service there is usually no compensation either if the connection is missed. I believe many of the low cost airlines don't designate any flights as "connecting" and give no compensation for missed connections. I believe your contract with them is on a per flight basis not end to end so buyer beware.
