Where does this leave Professional Pilots ??
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Where does this leave Professional Pilots ??
You get up at 7am or so - see the kids to school, perhaps, if you are very lucky, grab a short nap in the afternoon and then fly down to the Med that night and over the fence in the morning - basically awake for over 24 hours !!!! Oh, and in addition, you drive home !!!
Headline news today !!
>> The motorist accused of falling asleep and causing the Selby train crash has been convicted of 10 charges of causing death by dangerous driving.
The judge, Mr Justice Mackay, said it was inevitable that he would receive a substantial prison term."
He had not had enough sleep, said Professor James Horne, Britain's leading authority on sleep-related road smashes, he could not have maintained alert driving. Hart stayed up all night talking to a woman on the phone.
Prof. Horne said, "He had a nap the previous afternoon which I don't think had much effect - I find it very difficult to see how he could have maintained alert driving.
Asked if his lack of sleep was relevant, Prof Horne told Leeds Crown Court: "Yes - if he had been awake for the previous 24 hours, I don't really see how he could have driven. <<
Headline news today !!
>> The motorist accused of falling asleep and causing the Selby train crash has been convicted of 10 charges of causing death by dangerous driving.
The judge, Mr Justice Mackay, said it was inevitable that he would receive a substantial prison term."
He had not had enough sleep, said Professor James Horne, Britain's leading authority on sleep-related road smashes, he could not have maintained alert driving. Hart stayed up all night talking to a woman on the phone.
Prof. Horne said, "He had a nap the previous afternoon which I don't think had much effect - I find it very difficult to see how he could have maintained alert driving.
Asked if his lack of sleep was relevant, Prof Horne told Leeds Crown Court: "Yes - if he had been awake for the previous 24 hours, I don't really see how he could have driven. <<
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An excellent post and exactly my thoughts on reading this case.Most passengers who land around around 0400-1000hours are being flown by pilots in exactly that state of rest who may have been able to catch a bit of sleep the previous afternoon.Then of course most of us drive home and I guess most of us have nearly fallen asleep some time both in the air and driving.Should provide some interesting industrial ammunition to force FTL changes and perhaps hotels after all night operations.I seem to remember that both Mrs.Thatcher and Mr. Churchill went long periods without any periods of what most of us would call proper sleep and just think what they were in charge of!!!.
[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: Stampe ]
[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: Stampe ]
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This has been coming for some considerable time and it doesn't just affect our industry. The whole question of company drivers/time behind the wheel is coming more to the fore as the number of accidents involving company drivers become increasingly apparent.
For some of us, the whole question of basing will come into question. Let's say you are based at STN and choose to live in Cardiff. Your company may say that you are supposed to live within an hour of your duty station - but do they really insist upon it? Like most, the answer is probably that your domestic arrangements are your own concern providing they don't interfere with your job and you report for duty on time. But your company can't say it doesn't know where you live. So it deposits you at STN at 0230 after a maximum FDP, secure in the knowledge that that is where its responsibility ends. Meanwhile, you drive back to Cardiff and, on the way, become an integral part of a bridge support on the M4.
I'm not pretending I know for sure what a court might make of those circumstances but I have a sneaking suspicion that, given the way our compensation culture is going,it might be difficult for your company to argue they have no responsibility for the accident. And look at the proposals for the new offence of Corporate Killing which suggest that a company would be liable if its actions are the causeor one of the causes of a death.
Doesn't seem that everyone has looked at the implications of the HSE's proposals under their Revitalising Health and Safety initiative or the Home Office's new offence of Corporate Killing
For some of us, the whole question of basing will come into question. Let's say you are based at STN and choose to live in Cardiff. Your company may say that you are supposed to live within an hour of your duty station - but do they really insist upon it? Like most, the answer is probably that your domestic arrangements are your own concern providing they don't interfere with your job and you report for duty on time. But your company can't say it doesn't know where you live. So it deposits you at STN at 0230 after a maximum FDP, secure in the knowledge that that is where its responsibility ends. Meanwhile, you drive back to Cardiff and, on the way, become an integral part of a bridge support on the M4.
I'm not pretending I know for sure what a court might make of those circumstances but I have a sneaking suspicion that, given the way our compensation culture is going,it might be difficult for your company to argue they have no responsibility for the accident. And look at the proposals for the new offence of Corporate Killing which suggest that a company would be liable if its actions are the causeor one of the causes of a death.
Doesn't seem that everyone has looked at the implications of the HSE's proposals under their Revitalising Health and Safety initiative or the Home Office's new offence of Corporate Killing
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Hi
I aspire to the fraternity of professional aviators and presently do 12 hour night shifts myself.
Sometimes I cannot remember half the journey home
Rex
[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: rex ]
I aspire to the fraternity of professional aviators and presently do 12 hour night shifts myself.
Sometimes I cannot remember half the journey home
Rex
[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: rex ]
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deeps has a point. I know there are pilots with easyJet based in Luton who live from Swindon to Sevenoaks. Some try to set up appartments in Luton, but the arrangement frequently does not work out.
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The interesting point that I picked up from the BBC was that this was considered just an accident, one of those terrible things that happens from time to time, until it was discovered that Hart had been up all night. It was then considered CRIMINAL that he decided to drive and therefore deliberately (knowingly) put other people lives in danger.
Ref. Doctors etc.. yes I agree !
Ref. Doctors etc.. yes I agree !
short flights long nights
I think now the "cat is out of the bag" Im long haul, and have been awake for 19 hours since leaving my hotel, ( and did not sleep that well in the hotel due jet lag/cleaners making a noise) and at the end of the flight I crash. They first say I was tired, but no I have operated to the approiate law, then they say I was drunk, no, no drink in the last 24 hours (though it may have helpt me sleep). Fact,we all need sleep at the right time. And if this person can be found guilty of not having sleep, then I suggest that everyone of us worldwide, start refusing back of the clock duties, just incase we end up in jail.
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What annoys me most is that after finishing your night freight duty at Luton at 04.00 and driving back to Birmingham (home) you see this notice by the side of the M1 "Tiredness kills - take a break" WHERE? You can't pull off on the hard shoulder when you feel your eyelids getting heavy, you can't pull off onto one of the junctions because thay have made them motorway regulations - no stopping. You just have to continue, windows down heater off, until you make a service area and have a kip in the carpark. Drive down the A14 towards the East coast however and there are laybys for such activities every few hundred yards!
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As a longhaul pilot I have frequently driven home after 24+ hours with little or no rest. I only live 1.5 hours from base and usually make it home on adrenalin. Now Ive been compared to a drunk driver (social outcast was the phrase used). Best be very careful and rethink tactics!
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A long time ago..........
I awoke at 6am, checked PPRuNe (as you do), took the kids to school, etc......
At 5pm my standby started, and on the dot of which the phone rang - and guess who ?
Crewing: "Hi Crash, sorry old son, we've gotta call you out"
Crash: "Fair enough" said I (thinking it'd only be a quick EDI, or maybe a MUC, or MXP), "so where am I going ?"
Crewing: "Tenerife"
Crash: "Err, excuse me, where did you say ?!"
Crewing: "Tenerife, it's gonna be crap here in the morning, snow, ice, and fog and the crew that were rostered are not cat3 qualified - so that's why we're calling you. How soon can you be in ?"
Nb. At the time I, of my own volition, lived 90 miles away, and had never been late and / or missed a duty.
Crash: (silently "Sh!t !") "In about 1:30" (our contracted report time) "and I'm leaving now"
So I drove like a man possessed and made the report.
So, at about 9:30pm (our inbound aircraft was delayed) it's off to Tenerife I go.
From overhead Dinard until abeam Casablanca it was as rough as a bears arse - even the cabin crew we sick !
Running behind schedule (with the aircraft needed for an immediate rotation on our return) we conduct a lightening fast turn-around (thirty minutes) and we're on our way back to the UK - and again from Casablanca to Dinard the same truly crap ride (cabin crew and all the pax sick).
Approaching the UK we're told by the French to slow down coz our destination airport is closed "Whilst ze sweep ze snow from it !"
Aside from being late, we then spend twenty minutes in the hold, during which we went through all the usual machinations about diversions (anybody else find it hard not to keep looking at the fuel gauges ? ) and what we'd do w.r.t. pax and the aircraft / crew if we did.
Finally we land at our home base, albeit on the pin of pins of diversion fuel minima, but then wait 45 minutes for wheelchair support for some pax that required it, nicely followed by no sign of a crew bus (and HQ is some way away) and eventually (+1 hour after arriving on stand) we pile into the back of the engineers van (complete with discard oil and Skydrol cans) and he takes us over to HQ.
The time is now 08:00
We hand-in the flight paper work and ****** off to the now snow filled car park. I manage to de-ice the car and make my way to the motorway - which, as you can imagine, after a night of snow, was somewhat congested being down to 2 (and occasionally 1) lanes.
Finally arrive home at noon, having literally fought my way through the traffic / snow / ice, having been continuously awake since 6am the previous morning.
Nb. It gets worse, I was so wide-awake - read, 'stressed' - when I got home that I actually found it hard to go to sleep, e.g. and I won’t bore you with detail, the door bell went three times during my slumbers, waking me each time - I eventually drifted off properly at 14:00 - but it was a short-lived slumber, as the kids came in at 16:00 and woke me up again. Coupled to this, I was rostered for an 04:45 report the next morning - so, I rang crewing, and for the first time ever, sighted he 'F' (i.e. fatigue) word - and to whit they were not at all happy about it !
So let me see - I spent 30 hours being completely awake, drove 180 miles (just to work and back), flew something in the order of 3600 Nm, was thoroughly bounced about for 5+ hours, went through the hoop w.r.t. all the usual things about diversions and fuel planning, and ultimately landed on an icy / slippery runway.
So seeing as how I can now supposedly get locked up for just doing my normal job - too right we should be concerned !
Ps. For any lay-people who read this site, this is a NORMAL operation for many a pilot - goodnight all !
[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: Devils Advocate ]
I awoke at 6am, checked PPRuNe (as you do), took the kids to school, etc......
At 5pm my standby started, and on the dot of which the phone rang - and guess who ?
Crewing: "Hi Crash, sorry old son, we've gotta call you out"
Crash: "Fair enough" said I (thinking it'd only be a quick EDI, or maybe a MUC, or MXP), "so where am I going ?"
Crewing: "Tenerife"
Crash: "Err, excuse me, where did you say ?!"
Crewing: "Tenerife, it's gonna be crap here in the morning, snow, ice, and fog and the crew that were rostered are not cat3 qualified - so that's why we're calling you. How soon can you be in ?"
Nb. At the time I, of my own volition, lived 90 miles away, and had never been late and / or missed a duty.
Crash: (silently "Sh!t !") "In about 1:30" (our contracted report time) "and I'm leaving now"
So I drove like a man possessed and made the report.
So, at about 9:30pm (our inbound aircraft was delayed) it's off to Tenerife I go.
From overhead Dinard until abeam Casablanca it was as rough as a bears arse - even the cabin crew we sick !
Running behind schedule (with the aircraft needed for an immediate rotation on our return) we conduct a lightening fast turn-around (thirty minutes) and we're on our way back to the UK - and again from Casablanca to Dinard the same truly crap ride (cabin crew and all the pax sick).
Approaching the UK we're told by the French to slow down coz our destination airport is closed "Whilst ze sweep ze snow from it !"
Aside from being late, we then spend twenty minutes in the hold, during which we went through all the usual machinations about diversions (anybody else find it hard not to keep looking at the fuel gauges ? ) and what we'd do w.r.t. pax and the aircraft / crew if we did.
Finally we land at our home base, albeit on the pin of pins of diversion fuel minima, but then wait 45 minutes for wheelchair support for some pax that required it, nicely followed by no sign of a crew bus (and HQ is some way away) and eventually (+1 hour after arriving on stand) we pile into the back of the engineers van (complete with discard oil and Skydrol cans) and he takes us over to HQ.
The time is now 08:00
We hand-in the flight paper work and ****** off to the now snow filled car park. I manage to de-ice the car and make my way to the motorway - which, as you can imagine, after a night of snow, was somewhat congested being down to 2 (and occasionally 1) lanes.
Finally arrive home at noon, having literally fought my way through the traffic / snow / ice, having been continuously awake since 6am the previous morning.
Nb. It gets worse, I was so wide-awake - read, 'stressed' - when I got home that I actually found it hard to go to sleep, e.g. and I won’t bore you with detail, the door bell went three times during my slumbers, waking me each time - I eventually drifted off properly at 14:00 - but it was a short-lived slumber, as the kids came in at 16:00 and woke me up again. Coupled to this, I was rostered for an 04:45 report the next morning - so, I rang crewing, and for the first time ever, sighted he 'F' (i.e. fatigue) word - and to whit they were not at all happy about it !
So let me see - I spent 30 hours being completely awake, drove 180 miles (just to work and back), flew something in the order of 3600 Nm, was thoroughly bounced about for 5+ hours, went through the hoop w.r.t. all the usual things about diversions and fuel planning, and ultimately landed on an icy / slippery runway.
So seeing as how I can now supposedly get locked up for just doing my normal job - too right we should be concerned !
Ps. For any lay-people who read this site, this is a NORMAL operation for many a pilot - goodnight all !
[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: Devils Advocate ]
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Excellent postings. The thought occurred to me as I heard the verdict that you could probably operate legally max FDP (say with discretion), arrive back @ base, have an accident on the motorway on the way home and be found guilty of causing death by dangerous driving.
You would then face 'a long prison sentence'. (For those who have not heard the latest, sentencing is next month but the judge used the above phrase)
You would then face 'a long prison sentence'. (For those who have not heard the latest, sentencing is next month but the judge used the above phrase)
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So much for our 'human right' to a decent nights sleep! (recent European Court ruling re LHR nightflights) How many nightshift workers are awakened by building works nearby or lawnmower merchants? which we are powerless to do anything about
I might feel differently if I were related to someone killed in the Selby crash, but what purpose does sending this man to jail serve?
I might feel differently if I were related to someone killed in the Selby crash, but what purpose does sending this man to jail serve?
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Well folks.
We knew this was going to be a very hot topic as soon as that verdict was delivered, didn't we? This ruling could also have PROFOUND implications for airline management - never mind the pilot. The shrink books also tell us that we 'cannot bank sleep / get sleep credit' by merely sleeping for 4 hrs before our night flight, but we CAN sleep off the debit - yep - at the steering wheel! I'm being facetious of course, but the importance of proving one's innocence after modifying the M25 crash barrier, will be to PROVE that you took "all reasonable measures" to rest before your flight.
I don't somehow think that the excuse "oh well officer, I HAVE just been on a night Larnaca you know" - will hold up so.......
....can we now expect an offer of hotac please after a night flight!!!??? - hmmmm, I'm feeling a bit pooped.
We knew this was going to be a very hot topic as soon as that verdict was delivered, didn't we? This ruling could also have PROFOUND implications for airline management - never mind the pilot. The shrink books also tell us that we 'cannot bank sleep / get sleep credit' by merely sleeping for 4 hrs before our night flight, but we CAN sleep off the debit - yep - at the steering wheel! I'm being facetious of course, but the importance of proving one's innocence after modifying the M25 crash barrier, will be to PROVE that you took "all reasonable measures" to rest before your flight.
I don't somehow think that the excuse "oh well officer, I HAVE just been on a night Larnaca you know" - will hold up so.......
....can we now expect an offer of hotac please after a night flight!!!??? - hmmmm, I'm feeling a bit pooped.
Isn't the pertinent point here about avoidable risk? Half my working life is spent on 12-hour night shifts [I'm doing it now] and the comments about the scary drives home are as accurate for me as anyone else but if I want to stay in my current employment then such a journey isn't reasonably avoidable.
Surely the difference is that the driver in that accident had wilfully neglected to rest when he had every oppurtunity to do so but chose to stay awake on the phone.
Surely the difference is that the driver in that accident had wilfully neglected to rest when he had every oppurtunity to do so but chose to stay awake on the phone.
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Droopy - you're quite correct
However, the emphasis here is that if you KNOWINGLY drive when you're feeling shattered, you're committing an offence (which, has probably always been the case anyway, but........ )
and therefore I feel that there really isn't any difference in flying an aeroplane or, chatting up some sad bint on the net all night, in that, if you crash after you KNEW you were unfit to drive - you might now face something worse than a wake-me-up-cuppa in the plods car!"
That's all, but I see your point
However, the emphasis here is that if you KNOWINGLY drive when you're feeling shattered, you're committing an offence (which, has probably always been the case anyway, but........ )
and therefore I feel that there really isn't any difference in flying an aeroplane or, chatting up some sad bint on the net all night, in that, if you crash after you KNEW you were unfit to drive - you might now face something worse than a wake-me-up-cuppa in the plods car!"
That's all, but I see your point
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Real life is not what civil servants (i.e. those on the States payroll) e.g. the Police, or HSE inspectors, or Sleep Professors know about.
The harsh and commercial realities of aviation life are that when you get called - as I did, and still do, e.g. just two nights ago, for a very heavy night flight - yet having been awake all day - one doesn't say "I'm sorry but I'm afraid that I've not been able to sleep this afternoon, and accordingly I can't come in to work, because I may be, or might become, fatigued. So you'd better call somebody else. Byee"
To which they reply, "but there is nobody else - it's either you, or we lose this £100,000 worth of business !" etc.
Suddenly your minds-eye reveals your colleagues having to tell their children why there's no food on the table.........
"Ok, what times report ?"
Perhaps then, FTL's are really a crock of sh!t (just a nice aiming point) and we all know it, in that if you stick to them then (at best) you're either marking your card for the future, or else (at worst) the company goes out of business - when it's undercut by some other airline who's crew are 'more flexible'.
E.g. how many times have we all gone to work when asked (begged) by crewing (or OpsMgmt) to do so due to an 'unplanned crew shortfall' or unexpected yet lucrative market opportunity, albeit that you know you maybe shouldn't ?!
And whilst I'm on my soap box...... those wa_nkers in the Belgrano (UK CAA) are a prime example of the biggest bunch of lazy incompetent to_ssers that ever lived - because one can be sure that they'll say that they always audit the hours which crews keep and find only minor infringements (surprise surprise)
But hold on a minute, nobody from FltOps Inspectorate has ever bothered to call me about what was an apparently 'legally rostered' flight duty (see above) - and why not ?!
The fact that it was actually outrageous seems to escape them, e.g. I finish work the night before at 10pm (after a five sector day), drive home, go to bed at midnight, wake at 6am (the rest you can read above)
So let's all get real (and honest about it) !
Yeah, there's certainly different strokes for different folks - but everybody needs (some) sleep, be yea driving a plane, car, ship, train, etc.......
ZZZZZZZZZZ
The harsh and commercial realities of aviation life are that when you get called - as I did, and still do, e.g. just two nights ago, for a very heavy night flight - yet having been awake all day - one doesn't say "I'm sorry but I'm afraid that I've not been able to sleep this afternoon, and accordingly I can't come in to work, because I may be, or might become, fatigued. So you'd better call somebody else. Byee"
To which they reply, "but there is nobody else - it's either you, or we lose this £100,000 worth of business !" etc.
Suddenly your minds-eye reveals your colleagues having to tell their children why there's no food on the table.........
"Ok, what times report ?"
Perhaps then, FTL's are really a crock of sh!t (just a nice aiming point) and we all know it, in that if you stick to them then (at best) you're either marking your card for the future, or else (at worst) the company goes out of business - when it's undercut by some other airline who's crew are 'more flexible'.
E.g. how many times have we all gone to work when asked (begged) by crewing (or OpsMgmt) to do so due to an 'unplanned crew shortfall' or unexpected yet lucrative market opportunity, albeit that you know you maybe shouldn't ?!
And whilst I'm on my soap box...... those wa_nkers in the Belgrano (UK CAA) are a prime example of the biggest bunch of lazy incompetent to_ssers that ever lived - because one can be sure that they'll say that they always audit the hours which crews keep and find only minor infringements (surprise surprise)
But hold on a minute, nobody from FltOps Inspectorate has ever bothered to call me about what was an apparently 'legally rostered' flight duty (see above) - and why not ?!
The fact that it was actually outrageous seems to escape them, e.g. I finish work the night before at 10pm (after a five sector day), drive home, go to bed at midnight, wake at 6am (the rest you can read above)
So let's all get real (and honest about it) !
Yeah, there's certainly different strokes for different folks - but everybody needs (some) sleep, be yea driving a plane, car, ship, train, etc.......
ZZZZZZZZZZ
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Told ops last week that with only 15 mins to spare at the end of our split duty we were going to overrun FTLs if we operated in the fog, because there would doubtless be fog. They said that maybe the weather would clear up and we should try anyway. What do ops know about weather forecasting? Due to tech problems and fog on both sectors we ended up being late and had much reduced rest. This is a regularly rostered trip and with that night's problems the captain offered them the option of making it a full night stop instead of a split. They say they have never had problems before, but I wonder how many of my colleagues when faced with a commute home in rush hour after a 14hr overnight split duty with only 4hrs rest in a room next to the lift feel like going up to ops to tell them.
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In my airline it is possible to report around 4-6pm for a two sector/four hour flying/7 hour duty day (or for a one sector five hour flying day) and then be told to hang around for a few hours because you are now going on a 14-16 hour Ultra Long haul sector (and then be away for home for 5 -7 days)
This happens regularly - it has been going on for some time and all the authorities know about it (MORs etc etc).
I don't know about anybody else but if I think I am working from 4-6pm to midnight I get up normally. When you then report to be told you are going to fly all night and half the next day (as well as be away from home for several days - unplanned) I find it stretches my physical endurance.
I don't want to say anymore I might get sacked or demoted with the others.
This happens regularly - it has been going on for some time and all the authorities know about it (MORs etc etc).
I don't know about anybody else but if I think I am working from 4-6pm to midnight I get up normally. When you then report to be told you are going to fly all night and half the next day (as well as be away from home for several days - unplanned) I find it stretches my physical endurance.
I don't want to say anymore I might get sacked or demoted with the others.
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I don't think I quite understand how standby duty works; Devil's Advocate mentioned in what I imagine is a fairly typical story that he had been up since 6am one day until about 2pm the next. But his standby time didn't start until 5pm.
So, we have an 11 hour period - presumably your day off - before any sort of actual duty time starts in which to do what you want. You can, if you wish, sleep, but I suppose most would rather use their time off productively.
Point is, though, if you don't use those 11 hours to sleep, and then wind up forming an integral part of a bridge support on your way home the next day, whose actually to blame? You, for not sleeping, or the airline for forcing standby at the end of your only time off? Or both?
Answers on a postcard...
So, we have an 11 hour period - presumably your day off - before any sort of actual duty time starts in which to do what you want. You can, if you wish, sleep, but I suppose most would rather use their time off productively.
Point is, though, if you don't use those 11 hours to sleep, and then wind up forming an integral part of a bridge support on your way home the next day, whose actually to blame? You, for not sleeping, or the airline for forcing standby at the end of your only time off? Or both?
Answers on a postcard...