Thrust Reverser falls off 747 in Frankfurt
None but a blockhead
Join Date: Nov 1999
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Are thrust reversers worth the hassle? Before I learned the way of the PPRuNe I was just another passenger, in awe of the exploding engines with the enormous noise that brought us safely to a halt. Now I keep reading that (a) you never really actually need them (b) if they don't work, it doesn't matter (c) now and again they go wrong with amusing (in this case) or terrible (in-flight deployment) consequences.
Would things be better without them?
R
Would things be better without them?
R
So what?
Several months ago two of our jets landed and an entire wheel rolled away from the landing gear, at high speeds from the two planes.
Quality airline operations-outsourcing. This did not really surprise us too much.
Many pilots here anticipated a major incident or crash this last winter, due to our Upper Mgmt. team's total indifference to quality and safety. Never mind passenger service.
Several months ago two of our jets landed and an entire wheel rolled away from the landing gear, at high speeds from the two planes.
Quality airline operations-outsourcing. This did not really surprise us too much.
Many pilots here anticipated a major incident or crash this last winter, due to our Upper Mgmt. team's total indifference to quality and safety. Never mind passenger service.
Are thrust reversers worth the hassle? Before I learned the way of the PPRuNe I was just another passenger, in awe of the exploding engines with the enormous noise that brought us safely to a halt. Now I keep reading that (a) you never really actually need them (b) if they don't work, it doesn't matter (c) now and again they go wrong with amusing (in this case) or terrible (in-flight deployment) consequences.
Would things be better without them?
R
Would things be better without them?
R
Most pilots are used to them and it is difficult to transition in the event where they are locked out and you have one of those dicey winter landings. very interesting data concering lockouts demonstrates this.
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Somewhere on a long-lost hard drive I have some marketing stuff on 345 and 346 that shows they were originally proposed without reversers. Not sure at what point the were added back in, but probably due to airline pressure.
And hyper-mega-jumbo A380 has inboard reversers only - apparently the outboards would kick up too much debris from the overhang.
And hyper-mega-jumbo A380 has inboard reversers only - apparently the outboards would kick up too much debris from the overhang.
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VS1711,
On the Hippo, the outboard engines actually overhang the runway edge (yes, the thing is BIG).
So it could stir up grass, dirt, loose gravel, loose landing lights, you name it.
On the Hippo, the outboard engines actually overhang the runway edge (yes, the thing is BIG).
So it could stir up grass, dirt, loose gravel, loose landing lights, you name it.
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Duck tape or not.... I just looked at the photos once more, and an awful lot of hardware seems to have parted company with the aircraft 
Any news on what gave? Preferably with a pic from the MM or SM....
Any news on what gave? Preferably with a pic from the MM or SM....
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Originally Posted by JW411
Does anyone out there actually have a proven event whereby thrust reversers have actually prevented an overrun?
Personally, I doubt it.
Personally, I doubt it.
Since nothing significant happened (apart from the aircraft stopping on the runway and not on the overrun), such cases wouldn't be "documented", leave alone "proven".
Well, mon ami, I have ended up on a slippery runway (31R at JFK) in a DC-10 with the cockpit over the grass but the wheels, luckily, still on the concrete.
With my hand on my heart I could not absolutely state that the reversers saved the day although I still had full reverse applied until turning off the runway despite the usual convention of being out of reverse at 60 knots.
The fact is that reversers are only of any effect at high speeds and, although they make us feel better with all the noise and vibration, I'm not that sure that they are all that effective.
The brakes are much better.
With my hand on my heart I could not absolutely state that the reversers saved the day although I still had full reverse applied until turning off the runway despite the usual convention of being out of reverse at 60 knots.
The fact is that reversers are only of any effect at high speeds and, although they make us feel better with all the noise and vibration, I'm not that sure that they are all that effective.
The brakes are much better.
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JW411
If reversers are only effective at high speeds then how come some use
them for powerback from stands...believe DC9/MD80 type..
Though prob not PC now due noise and fuel costs
If reversers are only effective at high speeds then how come some use
them for powerback from stands...believe DC9/MD80 type..
Though prob not PC now due noise and fuel costs
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Many years ago........
The problem of slowing down, and even stopping an aircraft without brakes or thrust reversers was solved many years ago.
Never saw it happen for real, saw it happen in demonstrations many times when I was just a young and awestruck infant.
(no I don't mean catching the three wire!)
Sometimes we need to look back and see how they did things in the good old days.
All it needs is for the aircraft to be fitted with 50lbs of silk and nylon in the ass end, and a big red button marked "Emergency Stop" in the office at the front.
(Umm.. also you need a Landrover with four young and fit parachute recovery specialists that leap from the back and do their stuff!)
O.K so retrofitting aircraft with something that simple is not cost effective.
Landing with no reverse thrust available.
Never saw it happen for real, saw it happen in demonstrations many times when I was just a young and awestruck infant.
(no I don't mean catching the three wire!)
Sometimes we need to look back and see how they did things in the good old days.
All it needs is for the aircraft to be fitted with 50lbs of silk and nylon in the ass end, and a big red button marked "Emergency Stop" in the office at the front.
(Umm.. also you need a Landrover with four young and fit parachute recovery specialists that leap from the back and do their stuff!)
O.K so retrofitting aircraft with something that simple is not cost effective.
Landing with no reverse thrust available.
Join Date: Oct 2003
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As a quick aside, and sorry if this is a daft question... but:
Using autobrakes...if they provide a set rate of deceleration, rather than maximum retardation, does thrust reverse have any effect on stopping distance at all? Logically I'm guessing all thrust reverse does when autobrakes are on is take some of the energy absorption from the braking system; i.e the transfer of energy is shared between the reversers and the brakes...is the stop distance basically the same?
Cheers
James
Using autobrakes...if they provide a set rate of deceleration, rather than maximum retardation, does thrust reverse have any effect on stopping distance at all? Logically I'm guessing all thrust reverse does when autobrakes are on is take some of the energy absorption from the braking system; i.e the transfer of energy is shared between the reversers and the brakes...is the stop distance basically the same?
Cheers
James
nitro rig driver:
"If reversers are only effective at high speeds then how come some use them for powerback from stands....believe DC9/MD80 type".
The answer to that is incredibly simple and I am surprised you don't know the answer already.
Most stands are constructed on an upslope of 2° or thereabouts. That is why you often have to apply power to get on stand. The corollary of course is that it makes it much easier for tugs to push back heavy aircraft since they are pushing downhill.
It therefore follows that relatively light aircraft need only take the park brake off and apply idle reverse to get off stand backwards without needing a tug.
I remember sitting in my DC-10 at Raleigh/Durham (or was it Charlotte?) watching the DC-9s backing off stand without the use of a tug. It's easy really.
"If reversers are only effective at high speeds then how come some use them for powerback from stands....believe DC9/MD80 type".
The answer to that is incredibly simple and I am surprised you don't know the answer already.
Most stands are constructed on an upslope of 2° or thereabouts. That is why you often have to apply power to get on stand. The corollary of course is that it makes it much easier for tugs to push back heavy aircraft since they are pushing downhill.
It therefore follows that relatively light aircraft need only take the park brake off and apply idle reverse to get off stand backwards without needing a tug.
I remember sitting in my DC-10 at Raleigh/Durham (or was it Charlotte?) watching the DC-9s backing off stand without the use of a tug. It's easy really.
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Does anyone out there actually have a proven event whereby thrust reversers have actually prevented an overrun?
It was really slippery (friction in mid twenties, wet sanded ice) and they decided to not go around after a high flare, and land well in, with approx 1700 meters remaining. (Of 2568m total)
Given that the actual paved runway is actually 150 meters longer than what is published in the AIP (some is defined as RESA) they where lucky.
Wheel brakes only would have made that landing interesting.
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If that was a 747-200 with RB211 Engines, who was the operator of the acft? It wouldn't be CargoLux since they are 744's only. So it must be a contractor for CX. Maybe Air Atlanta?
The Reverend
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Cathay Pacific Cargo operate 7 B747-200Fs; 4 aircraft with RB211-524 engines and 3 with GE CF6-50E2 engines in addition to 6 400Fs and 6 400 BCFs.