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The "Cropped" approach at ZRH

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The "Cropped" approach at ZRH

Old 5th May 2007, 12:28
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The "Cropped" approach at ZRH

An approach with let down to a visual final to RW14 in ZRH will soon be in the test phase.

The idea is to have an approach entirely over Swiss territory. The route lies south of the Rhine and makes a right hand base to finals - not as dramatic as Kai Tek but still a few obstacles around...

From the pilot's point of view it should be fun and refreshing to get some good visual practice in but the whole thing is a political joke.

The Germans (and by the way I live in the Black Forest these days, having spent years much closer to Kloten) have been complaining about "noise". well I can tell you that the noise situation in the Black Forest - apart from one small village bang on track for RW14 on a ridge north of the Rhine - is a "visual noise" problem. Most guys are still in idle, higher and clean at this stage.

The Swiss motorbikes which roar through the winding roads each sunny evening and weekend make much more noise than any airliner.

Anyway, enjoy the fun - and read those NOTAMs well!

FC.
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Old 5th May 2007, 18:17
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Most guys are still in idle, higher and clean at this stage
Judging by most of the approaches i've done/seen into ZRH, with the combination of being held high/asked to keep the speed up/the obligatory tailwind, there is rarely any more than idle power on going over that ridge, so god knows how they're affected by any noise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 5th May 2007, 19:01
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Hello!

The Germans (and by the way I live in the Black Forest these days, having spent years much closer to Kloten) have been complaining about "noise".
I feel really ashamed for being a compatriot of these people. And you have to consider, that most of those who complain drive to Kloten when they go on holiday, because it is the closest airport for them The Swiss autohorities should never, never have given in!

We live under the "downwind leg" for IFR approaches from the south when runway 07 at STR is in use, and over the street noise (which is no real noise anyway in our small town) approaching aircraft who overfly us at around 3000ft AGL are almost un-hearable. Ridiculous all this.

Greetings, Max
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Old 6th May 2007, 18:15
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Noise and giving in

Hi What Next.

The trouble is not really the Swiss Authorities or the German people - but the politicians on both sides.

A German political group saw a chance to make some points and a Swiss politician (Moritz Leuenberger) without going to see for himself, made some very big concessions. These include but are not restricted to, limiting airport hours at Kloten.

As a direct result of the concessions to Germany, aircraft now regularly approach over heavily populated town and suburban areas in the final configuration - ie with approach thrust set - as compared to the intermediate phase in idle which the Black Forest had been experiencing.

Right now, all round Kloten there are pressure groups defending their own "patch", without any consideration of the situation for the other areas if they get their way, trying to have aircraft approach from any direction but over them.

Anyway Max, it is refreshing to hear your views - how about getting them in a local paper?

FC.
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Old 6th May 2007, 20:14
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Lets not forget the fatal Crossair accident involving an RJ100 in 2001.In my view the investigation never really reported on the political/green issues with the approach and hence the influence or causal factor nature. I presume it was all too difficult.

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Old 7th May 2007, 15:29
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The Crossair accident

That accident happened on a VOR approach to RW28, which had a steep approach angle and was originally only used in case of strong west winds - where the angle/ROD was not a problem due to a low GS.
When politics decreed that RW28 would be used as a standard approach RW, problems started occuring because no wind or light tailwind conditions could happen. This made a big difference to the ROD calculation (those pilots who made one...) and needed careful preparation.
In the case of the RJ crash, the pilots flew outside their company procedures and busted minimum - possibly aggravated by a cavalier approach to the ROD problem. I don't think this accident can be laid directly at the door of the politicians however.
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Old 8th May 2007, 16:32
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Who flew it?

Hello Mike,

Your remarks in red are quite right.

As for the ATIS, the runway in use may well and often does change within the 30 minutes after recording. What counts is the clearance.

However my point is that it was the crew who cocked up the approach, broke the rules and hit the ground, not some rule maker.

The man at the front does the job. He is never compelled to accept an approach he doesn't like and the report makes it pretty clear that it was a rushed and poorly executed job.

Unfortunately for all concerned...
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Old 9th May 2007, 06:26
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Safety is all about layered defences. The politicians took one defence layer away. I hope they sleep well.
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Old 9th May 2007, 06:48
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Oh come on!

I am no fan of politicians, which I hope I have made clear!

But any commercial pilot worth his salt should be able to fly a VOR approach within limits, especially with a STOL capable machine.

Of course it is much nicer for us, after a long day to have an ILS with a big fat runway at the end of it but I have to say that my stint in the Far East, flying passenger jets on offset NDBs and VORs and visuals to short island strips in all weather conditions was great value, even with five to six daily legs.

It will be the same with this cropped approach - there will be those who enjoy it in and those who complain.

FC.
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Old 9th May 2007, 06:55
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never compelled to accept an approach he doesn't like
, yeah well FC, I guess you have been outta ZRH for too long a time.
There you don't choose no nothing, wether TOD/ROD/takeoff-arrival rwy or else. The whole lot gets dictated, tailwind or not, you either accept it or divert, politics have priority, not safety

Regarding the ARJ accident, another causal factor that was not mentionned in the report, is the design of the aircraft. Anyone having flown the Teapot in icing conditions will be in the known as to the load of work required during the final phase of such an approach, airchangeover and so on, time that would be better spent to monitor the approach and fly the beast

Finally the cropped approach to 14 will only be a feeble give-in (thanks to the anti-transportation minister) to the strong opposition of the richest folks of the country whose housing happen to lie under the path of the south approach to R34...

xetroV, well written!
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Old 9th May 2007, 15:10
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You said it

That's right F4F - you accept it or you divert. That's why you get paid.

I did that once - went to GVA as in my opinion BSL was out of limits too. (The reason that time was "severe turbulence" being quoted on "short final" - 28.)

When I got there the company guys were mad - "no-one has landed at ZRH since you pulled out of the hold..." I said, "Well they are all captains and can make their own decisions too!"

FC.
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