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Busting FTL limits - Emirates Airline's latest trick!

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Busting FTL limits - Emirates Airline's latest trick!

Old 15th Apr 2007, 15:58
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Busting FTL limits - Emirates Airline's latest trick!

Coming soon to the airspace near you........... London, Australia, US, Europe, Asia etc; an Emirates aircraft with very tired pilots flying well over 100 hours in 28 days, or 900 hours per year.

The UAE's favourite(!) airline has decided once again to instigate FACTORING of pilots' FLYING HOURS (as opposed to duty hours) for augmented flights. As advised this week by Flight Crew Instruction, as of May 1st 2007, augmenting pilots of heavy crew flights are only to log 66% of sector time on a 3 crew flight, or 50% on a 4 crew flight. This is NOT just for personal log books, but for the calculation of 28 day and annual flying hour limits as well!

The logic to the company is plain to see - why struggle to find enough pilots in a demanding recruitment scenario, when instead everybody's absolute flying hour limits can be arbitarily raised. This has been done before here, and subsequently dropped, but is now on again apparently at the behest of the local CAA. Some insiders suggest that Emirates have the CAA here in their back pocket, but one couldn't possibly comment on that allegation.......

Can this be safe, right or sensible? Do you know how your airline calculates flying hour limits?? Opinions please ladies and gentlemen....
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Old 15th Apr 2007, 16:36
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It is NOT safe nor wise to do so. Personally I am more tired after a dead headed sector than one operating.
Unfortunately, incidents must happen first in order to change this (new and unwise)policy.
Fly safely QTA.
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Old 15th Apr 2007, 16:36
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simple,do'nt work for the fu$kers.
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Old 15th Apr 2007, 16:44
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This has been done before here, and subsequently dropped, but is now on again apparently at the behest of the local CAA. Some insiders suggest that Emirates have the CAA here in their back pocket, but one couldn't possibly comment on that allegation.......

Isn't the head of GCAA (also head of DXB) the owner of your airline??
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Old 15th Apr 2007, 17:27
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Amazing part, the Head of the CAA is also the Chairman of Emirates !

How can you win ?
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Old 15th Apr 2007, 19:23
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Angry

What happens if you are bonded and the rules change! Smacks of the ol days of slavery and fuedalism.
I know its a bit off the mark but I have to rid the airline world of this bondage stuff. either you pay for your own type rating from your own funds or you dont. and stop this poncing about with bu77sh1t. if the airlines are so great to work for then you dont need it and IMHO its NOT enforcable. what you gonna do come round to my house and take my telly or sue me for every penny i dont have. come on folks lets stop this bonding nonsense for once and for all. all those planning to leave their crappy company just do it and move to the next crappy company and dont pay a penny. just stand your ground. todays world- license+hours+ringpiece=job

mr very angry from north of the border.
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Old 16th Apr 2007, 03:34
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Thanks for the replies so far. For the record, the head of Emirates Airline is not the head of the CAA here, though that is a commonly held misconception.

The idea of a pilot just leaving and the problem going away is slightly missing the point. It may well go away for the individual concerned, but not for the many who can't due family circumstances, bonding, being a national here etc etc.

Certain carriers come to the attention of other state authorities for flying aged aircraft of questionable serviceability (PIA come to mind) and get banned from European airspace til things are fixed. Yet how many hours a month does a pilot from the United Arab Emirates have to fly through your airspace before the UK CAA (for example) take notice - 110, 130, 150?? All possible under the new rules.

So folks just remember, the next time you see that huge new football stadium, all the cricket advertising, the Americas Cup and indeed the model A380 in Emirates colours where once Concord stood at the entrance to Heathrow, the company that asks you to "Keep Discovering", is now asking their pilots to "Keep RECOVERING" from excessive monthly and annual flying hours. Lets hope it's not your family in the back.......
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Old 16th Apr 2007, 04:05
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Ah common this is nothing new EK did it in the past and is doing it again. It was when they put the H.A.R.T. or H.E.A.R.T.H. in and then got rid of it as soon as they got a pilots shortage.

As far as the sheikh of Dubai forgot his name being head of GCAA that story is going around for years and if he's not head of that ministery surely his brother, cousin, uncle or good friend is head of the department. You should by now know how these things work in the sandpit.

On the other side GCAA approves a lot of things for other operators as well it's not just EK.

If you can not leave for whatever reason get a sicknote if you're to tired to fly this is covered under the regs.

As far as locals not being able to leave EK not sure why.... Do they get punished if they come back into the country? Do they get a sightseeing tour from ATC? or is it something else....
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Old 16th Apr 2007, 04:50
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The point of this thread was, does anyone else have factored hours for absolute Limits?

As for the head of the Airline having anything to do with the regulatoy Authority, this is just a myth. The head of the airline is the Chairman of the DCA (Dubai Civil Aviation) This is actually the AIRPORT not the GCAA. this would be the same as saying the Spanish guy in charge of BAA (British Airports Authority) is the head of the UK CAA.

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Old 16th Apr 2007, 04:54
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ok point taken, We do not have factored airline neither did I hear any other airline than EK using them.
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Old 16th Apr 2007, 05:06
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What's A Ring-piece

My condolences mate!What's a ring-piece?(English aint my first language)
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Old 16th Apr 2007, 05:31
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Ring-oiece

AHRS

It rhymes with your moniker , and you are sitting on it !
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Old 16th Apr 2007, 05:33
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Plankcap - Not wanting fact to ruin a good story, if you read the FCI they effectively say that only Logged hours count toward the absolute maximums. Therefore as augmenting pilots are only allowed to log 'time in seat' or 'stick time' then it is those pilots with a lot of augmenting flights who will be affected. That is the 340 F/Os mainly. Also anyone nudging 900 hours can expect rosters full of JFKs, SYDs and MELs. The 66%/50% figures you quote are for planning but don't relate to what you can actually fly - you can actually fly a lot more!
Clearly EK (and if we are to believe EK, the GCAA)are wrong in doing this as logged hours are different to 'flight time' as defined for the purposes of maximums.
Can I suggest you write a politely worded email to mgmt asking for clarification of the FCI.
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Old 16th Apr 2007, 06:57
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Time accountable

Heavy crew time accounting. All Duty Time is Duty Time, time at controls is irrelevant. This break down of Time at Controls & Time on Duty was a practice used some many years ago by US FAR91 carriers, I saw many a time where one crew (Capt/FO/FE + Cabin) operated ETAR/RMS Diego Garcia live and logged. 2 hr T/R then return as a backend ferry. Nothing logged for the return sector, just a pay log. No FTLs for FAR 91 ops.

Also have seen OEDR/DHA-ETAR/RMS-KSWF/SWF-KAOK/OAK in one hit with only the RMS/SWF sector logged, this again with one 3 man crew, long day what.

I had thought that these practices had been torn apart, seems not, I'd hate to be one of the front line crewing folks in your little bit of the NEW Sandpit-High Rise-Car Park-Shopping Mall, what was a good beach/creak areana.

I was in the original!!
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Old 16th Apr 2007, 07:16
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Exclamation

Did TCAS get this idea from his old mate LCG at Big? He always thought that bunk time should be treated as annual leave.

Where do they get off?
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Old 16th Apr 2007, 07:39
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Thumbs down

From my point of view I see no reason to apply in such an "airline".
Emirates used to be one of the top airlines and it's a pity to see how things are changing. I do think that even though they increase the salaries and improve T&Cs in the next futur nobody will forget.
They are reaching the point of no return.
Should we ban Emirates?..............
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Old 17th Apr 2007, 02:56
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If Flight Engineer time only counts for 25% towards licences or ratings, perhaps he is allowed to fly 400 hours in 28 days and 3600 hours in the previous 12 months. P2, P3 etc. time can be factored the same way.

However pay is still calculated on total time in the Aircraft so there could be a lot of rich widows.

DD
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Old 17th Apr 2007, 12:44
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Its all very simple don't work for this airline! Every one that does has gone there to fly nice shinny toys and have lots of cash. ie you take the Shieks shilling you take the Shieks Sh1t. You don't like it, you move on.
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Old 17th Apr 2007, 14:03
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This is a flagrant violation of FTL's. Clearly for the purpose of not hiring more pilots. (Maybe no one applied!)

Plank Cap, I think you hit the solution already. Get the regulators in destination states to blacklist the airline until back in line.

As an aside, a previous employer tried to push an 8 hour positioning flight as 'rest period', to then operate an 8 hr flight. F***ing amazing.
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Old 18th Apr 2007, 03:24
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8 hours rest in flight followed by 8 hours duty. I think MK used to do that. Not any longer!
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