Flight Student Pax Lands Commuter Plane
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Had this happened on a jetliner, the would be hero would have been shot by a Skymarshall, upon the successful landing, she would probably have been sued for damaging the aircraft, intruding the cockpit, and would be placed in the FBI watch list for successfully "taken over the controls of an aircraft" in the past.
Excellent job, everyone walked out alive, that's all that matters!
Excellent job, everyone walked out alive, that's all that matters!
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Interested,
For what it's worth I didn't reference the "quote" to a specific poster, it was meant to be generic. If you want to claim credit for the implication, fill your boots mate.
Glad to see you became so proficient and capable with such ease. Perhaps you're a natural.
Remember, JFK junior (who had considerably more experience than this lass, including retractable and some instrument training) met a less happy ending, at night.
Assuming the runway had (the typical) pilot controlled lighting, frankly, I'm amazed she found the airport at all!
Good on her!
For what it's worth I didn't reference the "quote" to a specific poster, it was meant to be generic. If you want to claim credit for the implication, fill your boots mate.
Glad to see you became so proficient and capable with such ease. Perhaps you're a natural.
Remember, JFK junior (who had considerably more experience than this lass, including retractable and some instrument training) met a less happy ending, at night.
Assuming the runway had (the typical) pilot controlled lighting, frankly, I'm amazed she found the airport at all!
Good on her!
Very few US city airports these days have runway lights bright enough to even see them against the background, until a few miles out on final.
Many private pilots at night could have easily gotten vertigo in her situation, unless many groundlights were visible. Running off the end of the runway with the gear down also could have been bad.
Could a passenger with only "Microsoft" computer flying experience etc have saved everyone?
Many private pilots at night could have easily gotten vertigo in her situation, unless many groundlights were visible. Running off the end of the runway with the gear down also could have been bad.
Could a passenger with only "Microsoft" computer flying experience etc have saved everyone?
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I echo your sentiments Dallas Dude......apparently her cell phone battery went flat during the proceedings - sods law!
And for the doubting thomas's of this thread - aw shucks,what attitudes! Get real! I sincerely hope neither you nor your pax ever experience something similar.
MO - way to go girl!
[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: tiger burn ]</p>
And for the doubting thomas's of this thread - aw shucks,what attitudes! Get real! I sincerely hope neither you nor your pax ever experience something similar.
MO - way to go girl!
[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: tiger burn ]</p>
I seem to remember reading of a similar story of an airman passenger landing a Vampire. He was told to land wheels up as it increased to chances of survival. Is this possible here?
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For BIK 118.60's benefit, I quote from a posted bulletin above as follows: [quote]... Provincetown's unmanned airport, where she had received some flight training in the past<hr></blockquote>This may go some way toward explaining her ability to find, and to use, the airfield in question. And, for those who wish to label me as a "doubting Thomas", I say that I doubt not a single part of the event as reported, only the news reports and posts upon here which carry the inference that the lady is, by her timely and assertive action, "a hero".
I guess it's a matter of ones definition of a hero, and my own goes a little further than the scenario as stated in this case. Surely no-one here, especially those from 'the land of the free', would wish to deprive me of my right to an opinion in the matter, would they?
And for DD, my flying experience at 50 hours is far from unusual, and that was the point in my stating it. Nothing more. Again I say, lighten up. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Finally, and to toss just a little more fuel on the fire, let's not overlook the fact that many UK pilots get to sit in the co-pilot seat of passenger airliners as fully fledged First Officers with a little over 200 hours of prior "flying training". Heroes one and all, then! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: interested ]</p>
I guess it's a matter of ones definition of a hero, and my own goes a little further than the scenario as stated in this case. Surely no-one here, especially those from 'the land of the free', would wish to deprive me of my right to an opinion in the matter, would they?
And for DD, my flying experience at 50 hours is far from unusual, and that was the point in my stating it. Nothing more. Again I say, lighten up.
<img src="wink.gif" border="0"> Finally, and to toss just a little more fuel on the fire, let's not overlook the fact that many UK pilots get to sit in the co-pilot seat of passenger airliners as fully fledged First Officers with a little over 200 hours of prior "flying training". Heroes one and all, then! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: interested ]</p>
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Interested--
If you doubt the lady is a hero, I'd be interested in just how many lives one has to save and under what conditions to qualify.
I sincerely hope that if I'm ever in that sort of position, there's another non-hero of that sort of calibre around. I'd be happy to trade any number of sweaty vesty Bruce Willis types.
Meanwhile, this incident is another case of cellphones conferring a safety advantage.
R
If you doubt the lady is a hero, I'd be interested in just how many lives one has to save and under what conditions to qualify.
I sincerely hope that if I'm ever in that sort of position, there's another non-hero of that sort of calibre around. I'd be happy to trade any number of sweaty vesty Bruce Willis types.
Meanwhile, this incident is another case of cellphones conferring a safety advantage.
R
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[quote] Friday when a Cessna 402 en route from Martha's Vineyard to Hyannis made an emergency landing in a closed Provincetown airport. <hr></blockquote>
Even if it did have a control tower it would have been closed!!!
Do you remember your first time in a twin? I do! The whole feel was different. I suddenly had two power levers and a variable pitch prop for the first time. Just after a very snaking take-off my instructor remarked "Gaza, you had everything under control....until you released the brakes" <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
All I can say is "well done girl"!!
Even if it did have a control tower it would have been closed!!!
Do you remember your first time in a twin? I do! The whole feel was different. I suddenly had two power levers and a variable pitch prop for the first time. Just after a very snaking take-off my instructor remarked "Gaza, you had everything under control....until you released the brakes" <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
All I can say is "well done girl"!!
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Well, FJW, I too say "well done". But I do not say "hero". It's amazing what one might do when one's arse is in the sling, is it not?
You trouble me though. Surely "[email protected]", with PPL, NR and Piper (not Cessna?) time of 80 hours would not truly be "petrified" at the thought? Well, at least I do hope not, especially if it is your heartfelt wish to become a fast jet pilot. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
You trouble me though. Surely "[email protected]", with PPL, NR and Piper (not Cessna?) time of 80 hours would not truly be "petrified" at the thought? Well, at least I do hope not, especially if it is your heartfelt wish to become a fast jet pilot. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
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Interested,
give it a rest now, please. The girl did well. The label 'hero' came from the people whose lives she saved, and they are both entitled to their own opinion and not here to defend afforementioned opinion. You are the only one on the thread getting so wound up over what your personal definition of a hero is, and all it is doing is adding a sour note to a congratulatory thread.
While you, your friends and acqaintances are obviously made of something else, the professional pilots here (I note you give your job as author) acknowledge what a difficult thing this student pilot did, and I would like to add my own 'well done'. The step from Cessna 152 to a more complex aircraft is NOT easy, and to do it in those circumstances must have been scary too.
give it a rest now, please. The girl did well. The label 'hero' came from the people whose lives she saved, and they are both entitled to their own opinion and not here to defend afforementioned opinion. You are the only one on the thread getting so wound up over what your personal definition of a hero is, and all it is doing is adding a sour note to a congratulatory thread.
While you, your friends and acqaintances are obviously made of something else, the professional pilots here (I note you give your job as author) acknowledge what a difficult thing this student pilot did, and I would like to add my own 'well done'. The step from Cessna 152 to a more complex aircraft is NOT easy, and to do it in those circumstances must have been scary too.
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More on the pilot incapacitation side of the story from the Boston Globe:
Pilot had history of illness on flights
He was cleared to fly 6 weeks ago
By Corey Dade, Globe Staff, 2/11/2002
The Cape Air pilot who lost consciousness while flying from Martha's Vineyard to Hyannis on Friday night was grounded last year for an undisclosed ailment, an airline official said yesterday.
About nine months ago, the pilot, identified by airline industry sources as Ronald N. Crews, was preparing to take off from Martha's Vineyard Airport when he voluntarily removed himself from the plane. Crews subsequently took a medical leave of absence, according to Cape Air spokeswoman Michelle Haynes.
Crews, 50, was cleared to fly again six weeks ago after undergoing a series of medical tests.
Haynes said she doesn't know why Crews became incapacitated in midair Friday night or what forced him off the plane last year. Because Crews has had two incidents without the airline's routine medical examinations detecting a problem, Haynes said, the airline can't be sure he won't suffer another mysterious in-flight episode.. . . .''I can't imagine that this gentleman would be flying with us again,'' Haynes said. ''This was too serious. I know I'm saying this without knowing what happened to him, but we tend to err on the side of caution.''
Friday's flight ended safely after Melanie Oswalt, one of four passengers aboard the 7:10 p.m. flight, took control of the Cessna 402, which had veered off course as Crews became disoriented and then passed out. Oswalt landed the plane without extending the landing gear at the Provincetown airport. None of the three other passengers on board was seriously hurt. Oswalt, 24, is a Cape Air security trainer with 50 hours of training on a smaller, simpler aircraft.
Haynes and Richard Bunker, an investigator for the Massachusetts Aeronautics Commission, couldn't confirm a report by passenger Roger Carchrie-Feltus of Hyannis that Oswalt and other passengers tussled with Crews for control of the plane.
Crews couldn't be reached yesterday for comment.
The Federal Aviation Administration said yesterday that it has begun investigating the incident.
Crews was treated at Cape Cod Hospital and released. Haynes said he was tested for illegal drugs and alcohol, the results of which could come today.
Crews has worked for the airline four years, and had relocated to the airline's Hyannis headquarters from its Caribbean hub in Florida, according to Haynes.
Cape Air is the largest of the nation's regional independent carriers, and the only airline with year-round service to the Cape. In addition to its dozens of flights each day to the Cape out of Logan Airport, the airline flies to the Caribbean from Key West, Fla., and San Juan.
The airline lost two of its Cessnas last year in accidents. In July, a plane crashed on a Logan runway after, according to a federal finding, the pilot ignored an air traffic controller's warning about dangerous wind currents from nearby larger aircraft. Nobody else was on board.
In January, a plane crashed three-quarters of a mile short of the runway at Martha's Vineyard. The pilot and the passenger were burned, but survived.
Cape Air said yesterday that its pilots' training and general safety practices exceed FAA guidelines.
Every six months, pilots undergo physicals. Examinations of Crews last year found him fit, Haynes said, though she couldn't say why airline officials don't know the nature of Crews's condition. Before Crews could return from medical leave, Haynes said, the airline required him to get a medical opinion independent of the routine evaluation.
''Obviously, something was missed. This gentleman had all these clearances and still became disoriented in the air. So there are some major questions,'' Haynes said.
[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: Airbubba ]</p>
Pilot had history of illness on flights
He was cleared to fly 6 weeks ago
By Corey Dade, Globe Staff, 2/11/2002
The Cape Air pilot who lost consciousness while flying from Martha's Vineyard to Hyannis on Friday night was grounded last year for an undisclosed ailment, an airline official said yesterday.
About nine months ago, the pilot, identified by airline industry sources as Ronald N. Crews, was preparing to take off from Martha's Vineyard Airport when he voluntarily removed himself from the plane. Crews subsequently took a medical leave of absence, according to Cape Air spokeswoman Michelle Haynes.
Crews, 50, was cleared to fly again six weeks ago after undergoing a series of medical tests.
Haynes said she doesn't know why Crews became incapacitated in midair Friday night or what forced him off the plane last year. Because Crews has had two incidents without the airline's routine medical examinations detecting a problem, Haynes said, the airline can't be sure he won't suffer another mysterious in-flight episode.. . . .''I can't imagine that this gentleman would be flying with us again,'' Haynes said. ''This was too serious. I know I'm saying this without knowing what happened to him, but we tend to err on the side of caution.''
Friday's flight ended safely after Melanie Oswalt, one of four passengers aboard the 7:10 p.m. flight, took control of the Cessna 402, which had veered off course as Crews became disoriented and then passed out. Oswalt landed the plane without extending the landing gear at the Provincetown airport. None of the three other passengers on board was seriously hurt. Oswalt, 24, is a Cape Air security trainer with 50 hours of training on a smaller, simpler aircraft.
Haynes and Richard Bunker, an investigator for the Massachusetts Aeronautics Commission, couldn't confirm a report by passenger Roger Carchrie-Feltus of Hyannis that Oswalt and other passengers tussled with Crews for control of the plane.
Crews couldn't be reached yesterday for comment.
The Federal Aviation Administration said yesterday that it has begun investigating the incident.
Crews was treated at Cape Cod Hospital and released. Haynes said he was tested for illegal drugs and alcohol, the results of which could come today.
Crews has worked for the airline four years, and had relocated to the airline's Hyannis headquarters from its Caribbean hub in Florida, according to Haynes.
Cape Air is the largest of the nation's regional independent carriers, and the only airline with year-round service to the Cape. In addition to its dozens of flights each day to the Cape out of Logan Airport, the airline flies to the Caribbean from Key West, Fla., and San Juan.
The airline lost two of its Cessnas last year in accidents. In July, a plane crashed on a Logan runway after, according to a federal finding, the pilot ignored an air traffic controller's warning about dangerous wind currents from nearby larger aircraft. Nobody else was on board.
In January, a plane crashed three-quarters of a mile short of the runway at Martha's Vineyard. The pilot and the passenger were burned, but survived.
Cape Air said yesterday that its pilots' training and general safety practices exceed FAA guidelines.
Every six months, pilots undergo physicals. Examinations of Crews last year found him fit, Haynes said, though she couldn't say why airline officials don't know the nature of Crews's condition. Before Crews could return from medical leave, Haynes said, the airline required him to get a medical opinion independent of the routine evaluation.
''Obviously, something was missed. This gentleman had all these clearances and still became disoriented in the air. So there are some major questions,'' Haynes said.
[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: Airbubba ]</p>
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When I was taught on "complex" aircraft (variable pitch prop, retractable gear, etc) it was to get the gear up on the upwind after you could no longer land safely on the runway/overrun.
Before that as a lowly student with a lot less than 50 hours you learned to land on the softest cheapest thing you could if you couldn't get to a runway, straight bit of road, pasture, etc.
We also learned that any landing you walked away from was a good one, so good for her. Maybe not a hero perse, but a good workmanlike job of piloting.
Before that as a lowly student with a lot less than 50 hours you learned to land on the softest cheapest thing you could if you couldn't get to a runway, straight bit of road, pasture, etc.
We also learned that any landing you walked away from was a good one, so good for her. Maybe not a hero perse, but a good workmanlike job of piloting.
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Interested,
"Hero"....any man (woman) noted for his (her) special achievement, as per my dictionary.
You're entitled to your opinion. I still think the shoe fits, though.
Talking of lightening up, I'd need to be on crack if I gave you my airplane at 300' and expected no mistakes and full checklist compliance from you (NOT).
Besides, she didn't have Burt Lancaster talking her down!
What books do you author?
"Hero"....any man (woman) noted for his (her) special achievement, as per my dictionary.
You're entitled to your opinion. I still think the shoe fits, though.
Talking of lightening up, I'd need to be on crack if I gave you my airplane at 300' and expected no mistakes and full checklist compliance from you (NOT).
Besides, she didn't have Burt Lancaster talking her down!
What books do you author?
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Interested,
I think the point is that landing the plane when you have pax depending on you is a bit different from when you have only an instructor's and your life at risk.
All training happens over time for a reason. If you demonstrate competence before that time, it means you're better than merely average, as your tone infers.
Stop being so damn glass half-empty. Are there not enough bad news [crashes, Ch.11, on stories] on PPRuNE that you feel the need to have more???
I think the point is that landing the plane when you have pax depending on you is a bit different from when you have only an instructor's and your life at risk.
All training happens over time for a reason. If you demonstrate competence before that time, it means you're better than merely average, as your tone infers.
Stop being so damn glass half-empty. Are there not enough bad news [crashes, Ch.11, on stories] on PPRuNE that you feel the need to have more???
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Pandora, thank you, I'll "give it a rest" when I choose, unless the moderators would wish to intercede to ensure such rest involuntarily. Such is the territory of freedom of speech while within the bounds of decency.
Yes, the girl did well, and those who feel she 'saved' them are entitled to call her what they please, rightly or wrongly.
Unless I am mistaken, though, those she saved were not pilots, professional or otherwise. You, on the other hand, claim to be a professional pilot and imply that I am not entitled to speak on this issue because I am a writer.
I note in your profile that you claim to hold an "f ATPL", the 'f' presumably being for 'frozen' which is a common misnomer, since there is no such licence. As I understand it, the 'f' is used to denote someone who has passed ATPL examinations but does not yet have the requisite flying experience to hold that licence. The minimum hours, I think, are some 1500. You have less than 1500, then, I assume?
As a recreational pilot, I have more than 6000 hours, including pure jet time. Does this mean that I must defer to your, 'frozen','professional' opinion on a matter that clearly relates to an as yet unlicensed young pilot in a fully functioning light aircraft? I think not. And I take some offence at your patronising and disparaging attempt here to put me in what you think is my place. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: interested ]</p>
Yes, the girl did well, and those who feel she 'saved' them are entitled to call her what they please, rightly or wrongly.
Unless I am mistaken, though, those she saved were not pilots, professional or otherwise. You, on the other hand, claim to be a professional pilot and imply that I am not entitled to speak on this issue because I am a writer.
I note in your profile that you claim to hold an "f ATPL", the 'f' presumably being for 'frozen' which is a common misnomer, since there is no such licence. As I understand it, the 'f' is used to denote someone who has passed ATPL examinations but does not yet have the requisite flying experience to hold that licence. The minimum hours, I think, are some 1500. You have less than 1500, then, I assume?
As a recreational pilot, I have more than 6000 hours, including pure jet time. Does this mean that I must defer to your, 'frozen','professional' opinion on a matter that clearly relates to an as yet unlicensed young pilot in a fully functioning light aircraft? I think not. And I take some offence at your patronising and disparaging attempt here to put me in what you think is my place. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: interested ]</p>
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Rather reluctantly, because this lady did a terrific job and deserves our admiration, I agree with those who are uneasy about the use of the word 'hero' in this case. If words are too lightly used they lose their strength when they are really needed, in the same way that medals for valour have to be strictly controlled.
So: Hero = saving (or trying to save) life, at the risk of losing your own.
She was actually working to save her own neck, as well as the others, and surely would have been just as motivated and resourceful had she been alone with the incapacitated pilot. Great achievement, but not actually heroic - and I'm sure that she would agree.
So: Hero = saving (or trying to save) life, at the risk of losing your own.
She was actually working to save her own neck, as well as the others, and surely would have been just as motivated and resourceful had she been alone with the incapacitated pilot. Great achievement, but not actually heroic - and I'm sure that she would agree.
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For those participants of this forum who would like to send Ms. Melanie Oswalt a congratulatory e-mail, send to: [email protected]
I did and bet she would greatly appreciate some more "positive" e-mails, i.e. credit where credit is certainly due.
Edited to make the email link work
[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]</p>
I did and bet she would greatly appreciate some more "positive" e-mails, i.e. credit where credit is certainly due.
Edited to make the email link work
[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]</p>