Continental Airlines Newark Chief Pilot in De-Icing Controversy
ex-Tanker
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Are we going to bet, or be safe?
Yeah well the point is - no-one knows what is under that snow until it is off! There have been some very nasty surprises for folk who thought they knew...
There are many differences to the conditions on some guy´s car (even if he is a chief) and an aircraft parked not too far away - like the aircraft may have been damp after landing, been in a different wind, had fuel of a certain temperature in the wings and so on.
There is only one solution gents - get the ship clean and then check. If you are unsure, do it again but for God´s sake don´t skimp!
The hands on check is the best last resort action that has been come up with yet. It is inconvenient but always reveals the true picture.
You normally notice the operators gaining in skills, by the way as the winter goes on. Great overdoses of unthinned fluid are symptomatic of lack of practice or training. That is a separate subject and not a reason for not de-icing.
FC.
There are many differences to the conditions on some guy´s car (even if he is a chief) and an aircraft parked not too far away - like the aircraft may have been damp after landing, been in a different wind, had fuel of a certain temperature in the wings and so on.
There is only one solution gents - get the ship clean and then check. If you are unsure, do it again but for God´s sake don´t skimp!
The hands on check is the best last resort action that has been come up with yet. It is inconvenient but always reveals the true picture.
You normally notice the operators gaining in skills, by the way as the winter goes on. Great overdoses of unthinned fluid are symptomatic of lack of practice or training. That is a separate subject and not a reason for not de-icing.
FC.
Sitting in the back departing Warsaw about 4 weeks a go on a day with flurries of snow, some heavy, and outside temperature around 0C, I felt very relieved that our Captain elected to take the full de-ice on offer near the holding point, while some others did not and taxied past while we joined the queue. It seemed to be about 50% taking it, 50% not, but that's only a guess.
I understand that those who did not probably had no need for a de-ice for one reason or another, quite legitimately. But I did find myself wondering if cost and/or slot times might have been a small factor in the decision, among others, for one or two. Perhaps those who took it had an insurance de-icing contract.
And then I thought that no-one is suicidal, regardless of the pressures, and they all know what they're doing.
But is it easier to persuade yourself, when it's marginal anyway, that it's OK not to take de-icing if you are under pressure to keep the schedule and minimise cost?
I understand that those who did not probably had no need for a de-ice for one reason or another, quite legitimately. But I did find myself wondering if cost and/or slot times might have been a small factor in the decision, among others, for one or two. Perhaps those who took it had an insurance de-icing contract.
And then I thought that no-one is suicidal, regardless of the pressures, and they all know what they're doing.
But is it easier to persuade yourself, when it's marginal anyway, that it's OK not to take de-icing if you are under pressure to keep the schedule and minimise cost?
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Would love to have read this ers snotty 'I know better than you' Memo had one of his Captains not elected to de'ice and crashed. Keep spraying that warm comforting sticky Goo Dudes!!
Must be a wind up!!
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My heart is truly warmed by what I read here - it would seem at last that everybody (except the initiator of this thread) has the same attitude to icing/anti-icing/de-icing that I have - if there is any doubt there is no doubt -drench the damn thing with fluid and get airborne with confidence. Sod the expense.....
I work for CAL and can assure you, this individual assistant chief pilot is an anomally and has been the subject of much criticism from the line pilots and fellow management over his memo.
He is not representative of our safety culture in any respect
My peers and I cannot recall a similar instance or ever being pressured to not take the full de-ice when required.
He is not representative of our safety culture in any respect
My peers and I cannot recall a similar instance or ever being pressured to not take the full de-ice when required.
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stilton:
every airline has its special few. sadly, sometimes they actually get into positions of authority.
while any pilot is in a position of authority, certain types who make procedure, suggestions, interview new hires, can change the shape of an airline...not always for the best.
Why upper management has not asked this asst chief pilot to depart the pattern is the real problem.
CAL has come along way and is normally doing a very good job in the safety arena. Many of us remember the days of the 80's.
I've had to deice for small bits of ice adhearing to wings. I honestly wish that there was a better way to take care of things. There are better ways, just no one wants to spend the money, or use their imagination...or build runways long enough to overcome any possible icing problem ;-)
every airline has its special few. sadly, sometimes they actually get into positions of authority.
while any pilot is in a position of authority, certain types who make procedure, suggestions, interview new hires, can change the shape of an airline...not always for the best.
Why upper management has not asked this asst chief pilot to depart the pattern is the real problem.
CAL has come along way and is normally doing a very good job in the safety arena. Many of us remember the days of the 80's.
I've had to deice for small bits of ice adhearing to wings. I honestly wish that there was a better way to take care of things. There are better ways, just no one wants to spend the money, or use their imagination...or build runways long enough to overcome any possible icing problem ;-)
The problem, as far as I see it, seems to stem from the fact that guidance on deice fluids as far as protection times/temps
also deice procedures seems to be in an awful state of affairs as far as the logistics of it.
While I do agree with de-icing when one has the slightest doubt [never doubt in aviation] as to the cleanliness of the airframe, but current procedures seem to be haphazard and may lead some of the more maverick souls to disregard them "for just a little ice or snow" [not a defense] also I agree that there's a possible contamination problem in terms of flight controls there needs to be a systematic study of deiceing fluids and perhaps an AC published on the topic.
remember it's always OUR fault though- unless the wings fall off or something.
also deice procedures seems to be in an awful state of affairs as far as the logistics of it.
While I do agree with de-icing when one has the slightest doubt [never doubt in aviation] as to the cleanliness of the airframe, but current procedures seem to be haphazard and may lead some of the more maverick souls to disregard them "for just a little ice or snow" [not a defense] also I agree that there's a possible contamination problem in terms of flight controls there needs to be a systematic study of deiceing fluids and perhaps an AC published on the topic.
remember it's always OUR fault though- unless the wings fall off or something.
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 7th Mar 2007 at 16:26.
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A friend of mine was Capt of a BAC 1-11 for Ford Air out of STN many years ago,did walkround saw snow on wings,but he could blow it off with his own breath,so he thought;if I can do that it will blow off during T/O no problem.He commenced T/O,@ VR tried to rotate,no rotation,accelerated another 30 knots and staggered into the air.It was 2 minutes before wing & engines were performing properly! A hard lesson,he was lucky to get away with it.I hope that idiot chief pilot reads this!
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He was lucky
He was sure lucky Saffron - especially as the BAC-111 also had the engines in line with any departing hidden cold soaked ice (so called fuel icing) cracking off as the wings flex on T/O (as in the Stockholm MD-80 case).
The guys in Washington who figured they would cuddle up nice and close to the previous in Taxy sequence and have the snow blown off by his jet efflux weren´t so lucky. They made a few more mistakes too...
But as you say we learn from these things - trouble is then, after notices and procedural improvements we then forget the lessons learned - until the next prang.
FC.
The guys in Washington who figured they would cuddle up nice and close to the previous in Taxy sequence and have the snow blown off by his jet efflux weren´t so lucky. They made a few more mistakes too...
But as you say we learn from these things - trouble is then, after notices and procedural improvements we then forget the lessons learned - until the next prang.
FC.
Buttonpusher
The letter is real, it made the Calforums (Continental pilot forums) rounds a couple of weeks ago and generated lots of comments (mostly negative). I agree with Stilton, the safety culture here at CO is very good and no-one is put under any pressure to do anything they believe is detrimental to flight safety.
It's now warming up in Newark.
I wonder if he'll be posting his thoughts about aircraft following the herd because the lead plane is afraid of a little rainshower on the departure track
P.S. His type is bred and sought out for that position, we have more than a few at my US major
I wonder if he'll be posting his thoughts about aircraft following the herd because the lead plane is afraid of a little rainshower on the departure track
P.S. His type is bred and sought out for that position, we have more than a few at my US major
Saffron: The BAC-111 you described has a "T"-tail just like the DC-9. Did the Captain reach up and feel it also? 
The effects of ice on the tail could have been deadly. On turboprops such as King-Airs, ice on the tail has caused fatal pitch-overs during selection of full landing flaps for which pilots had no training and about 100 pounds of pull on the yoke might be required.
Would not the icy tail of a jet also have potentially disastrous results for a jet on takeoff or landing? Let's not think about what could happen if the horizontal stabilizer (known as elevator or pitch trim) were not set correctly.
The effects of ice on the tail could have been deadly. On turboprops such as King-Airs, ice on the tail has caused fatal pitch-overs during selection of full landing flaps for which pilots had no training and about 100 pounds of pull on the yoke might be required.
Would not the icy tail of a jet also have potentially disastrous results for a jet on takeoff or landing? Let's not think about what could happen if the horizontal stabilizer (known as elevator or pitch trim) were not set correctly.
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Let's not think about what could happen if the horizontal stabilizer (known as elevator or pitch trim) were not set correctly.
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Theese airplanes on the morning in question would most likely have been refuelled with fuel from underground storage tanks, which most likely will be abv freezing temp. And thus melting the snow from underneath and causing it to freeze and "glue" the snow to the wing. 
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Just another bit of free advice from management that causes me to shake my head for a moment, chuckle, and then deice my airplane when I say it needs deicing. I also carry the fuel I think we need! No reason to get too bent out of shape over the boneheads. I just ignore 'em and do my job.
